Science & Tools of Learning & Memory | Dr. David Eagleman
发布时间 2026-01-26 13:01:26 来源
Often times people will ask me like an older person will say, hey, I do crossword puzzles. Is that good? Yeah, it's good until you get good at it. And then stop and do something that you're not good at. And constantly find the next thing that's a real challenge for you. That's the key thing about plasticity. Your brain is locked in silence and darkness. It's trying to make a model of the outside world. And if you're constantly pushing and challenging it with things that doesn't understand, then it'll keep changing.
有时候，人们会问我，比如一个年长的人会说，嘿，我做填字游戏。这样好吗？是的，这很好，直到你变得擅长它为止。然后就停下来，去做一些你不擅长的事情。不断寻找对你来说真正有挑战性的事物。这就是大脑可塑性的关键。你的大脑被困在沉寂和黑暗中，它试图构建一个外部世界的模型。如果你不断地通过它不理解的事物来挑战它，它就会持续变化发展。
Welcome to the Hubertman Lab podcast. We discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Hubertman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. David Eaglement. Dr. David Eaglement is a neuroscientist, a best-selling author, and a long-time science public educator. Today, we discuss several different features of brain science that impact your everyday life. And once you understand the mechanisms behind these features, it will position you to make better decisions.
欢迎收听Hubertman实验室播客。我们讨论科学以及日常生活中基于科学的工具。我是Andrew Hubertman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是Dr. David Eaglement。他是一位神经科学家、畅销书作家，并长期从事科学普及教育。今天，我们讨论了一些对你日常生活有影响的脑科学特征。一旦你理解了这些特征背后的机制，你将能做出更好的决策。
And if you choose to rewire your brain to be a more effective learner. We start by discussing neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to change in response to experience or any form of deliberate learning that you are trying to impose on yourself. We talk about the mechanisms for it and how you can get better at learning and unlearning in the context of skills and information. We also discuss memory formation, and the relationship between stress and time perception and why it is that people experience things in slow motion if those things are very stressful or traumatic, and how that can be useful for undoing traumatic memories.
如果你选择重塑大脑，让自己成为一个更有效的学习者，我们会从讨论神经可塑性开始。神经可塑性是指你大脑根据经历或你试图在自己身上主动进行的学习而改变的能力。我们会讲到这种能力的运作机制，以及如何在技能和信息的学习与遗忘方面提升这些能力。此外，我们还会讨论记忆的形成，以及压力与时间感知之间的关系，为什么人在经历非常紧张或创伤性事件时会感觉时间变慢，以及这如何有助于消除创伤记忆。
David also takes us through the neuroscience of cultural and political polarization, something that's very timely right now, false memories, deja vu, dreams, and the meaning of dreams, and a lot more. David is an absolutely legendary science communicator. I say this as a fellow neuroscientist. He is able to embed factual information about the brain into real life stories, and in doing so, he's able to shed light on how we work as humans and how we can all improve our life experience.
David 还向我们讲解了文化和政治极化的神经科学，这是当前非常及时的话题，以及虚假记忆、似曾相识、梦和梦的意义等诸多内容。David 是一位绝对传奇的科学传播者，作为一名神经科学家，我深有同感。他能够将关于大脑的事实信息融入到真实的生活故事中，通过这样的方式，他揭示了人类运作的机制，并如何提升我们的生活体验。
He's a true virtuoso of neuroscience and science education more generally. What David shares with us today will change the way that you think about thinking and your own mind, and no doubt will also change the way that you view the world. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
他是神经科学和科学教育领域的真正大师。今天，David与我们分享的内容将改变你对思考和自身思维的看法，无疑也会改变你对世界的看法。在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究角色是分开的。然而，这是我为了向公众提供零成本的科学信息及相关工具的愿望和努力的一部分。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. David Eagelman. Dr. David Eagelman, welcome. Thanks, great to you. Man, I feel like the kid that was a freshman when you were a senior because you got into this public facing science education long before I did, and you've had an amazing career also in your laboratory work.
根据这个主题，今天的节目确实有赞助商。现在进行我与David Eagelman博士的对话。David Eagelman博士，欢迎你。谢谢，见到你真好。我感觉自己就像个刚入学不久的新人，而你就像高年级的学长一样，因为你很早就进入了面向公众的科学教育领域，而且在实验室工作方面也有着非凡的职业生涯。
And today, I want to talk about all of it by mostly listening and you doing the talking. And there are so many topics in neuroscience that are fascinating, as you know, but I think perhaps the most fascinating thing about the human brain is its ability to change itself, plasticity. So I know how I think about neuroplasticity. I want to know how you think about neuroplasticity, what it is, and how we should think about it, and what we could possibly do with that information.
今天，我想主要通过倾听来谈论所有这些，而由你来多说。你知道，神经科学中有很多令人着迷的话题，但我认为，或许关于人类大脑最令人惊叹的地方是它自我改变的能力，也就是可塑性。我知道我自己是如何看待神经可塑性的，我想知道你如何看待神经可塑性，它是什么，我们应该如何理解这种现象，以及我们可以用这些信息做些什么。
OK, great. I mean, this was Mother Nature's big trick with humans was figuring out how to drop a creature into the world with a half-baked brain and then let the world wire up the rest of it. And so 1953, Crick and Watt, and I worked with Crick at the salt. They burst into the eagle and child pub and said, we've discovered the secret to life because they figured out the structure of DNA.
好的，太好了。我的意思是，大自然对人类开的一个大玩笑就是让一个半成熟的大脑的生物来到这个世界，然后让世界来完成其余部分的发展。而在1953年，克里克和沃森——我曾经和克里克在盐船上共事过——他们冲进了“鹰与孩子”酒吧，激动地宣布：“我们发现了生命的秘密”，因为他们破解了DNA的结构。
But that was really half the secret of life because the other half is all around us. It's every bit of experience that you have. It's your culture, it's your language, it's your neighborhood. All of that stuff gets absorbed by the brain and wires us up. And I often think about this issue of what if you were born 30,000 years ago, exactly your DNA, you pop out and you look around, and the question is, would you be you? The answer is you wouldn't be.
但那实际上只是生活秘密的一半，因为另一半就在我们周围。它是你所有的经历，是你的文化，是你的语言，是你的邻居。所有这些东西都会被大脑吸收，塑造我们的思维。我常常考虑一个问题：如果你出生在三万年前，拥有完全相同的DNA，你周围的环境不同，那么你还是现在的你吗？答案是否定的。
Look, maybe similar because of the same genetic blueprint, but you would have a different culture, and a different language, and different stories, and all that stuff, you'd be a very different kind of person. So brain plasticity, for anyone who doesn't know, it's that the brain is constantly reconfiguring itself. Every second of your life, you got 86 billion neurons, and really the way to think about it, these are like little creatures that are all crawling around and moving around.
看看，可能因为相同的基因蓝图而相似，但你会有不同的文化、不同的语言、不同的故事等等，所以你会是一个截然不同的人。那么，关于大脑的可塑性，如果有人不知道的话，它指的是大脑在不断地重新配置自身。你生命中的每一秒钟，都有860亿个神经元在运作。可以这样想，这些神经元就像是小生物，他们都在爬动和移动。
Each one is on average contacting 10,000 of its neighbors, but it's not like a fixed thing, like you might see in a textbook, instead they're plugging and unplugging and searching around and finding new places to plug in, and of course changing the strength of those connections. And I actually always find this weird. It's like having all these little creatures in your head that are slithering around, but that's what makes us absorb every single thing in our world. And this is what humans have that other creatures have less of, and that's what we've taken over, every corner of the earth.
每个个体平均与大约10,000个邻居进行联系，但这不是像教科书上描述的那种固定关系。相反，它们不断地连接和断开，寻找新位置进行连接，当然也在不断改变这些连接的强度。我一直觉得这很奇怪。这就像在你的大脑中有许多小生物在四处游动，但正是这种特性让我们能够吸收世界上的一切。这也是人类相比其他生物更具优势的地方，这让我们得以占领地球上的每一个角落。
That's why we have 60, we've gotten off the planet, we build skyscrapers and compose symphonies and so on, because each generation we land, and we get to spend our first few years absorbing everything that's been discovered before us, and then we springboard off of that and do something new, because we are able to figure out all the discoveries that have come before us because of this ability to reconfigure our own circuitry.
这就是为什么我们取得这么多成就：我们已经离开了地球，建造摩天大楼，创作交响曲等等。因为每一代人都从前人的基础开始，在最初的几年里吸收之前的所有发现，然后以此为跳板去创新。由于我们能够重新构建自己的思维方式，才得以理解前人的所有发现。
And if you were an alligator born 30,000 years ago, you'd be the same alligator, you know, eat, mate, swim, whatever, and you wouldn't be meaningfully different, but humans, because of our flexibility, we are the dominant species. Such an interesting take on time and human evolution that, and I completely agree with you, I just had never thought about it this way before, that we land when we're born, and we're absorbing the outcroppings of all the neuroplasticity that came before us.
如果你是3万年前出生的一只鳄鱼，你仍然会是同样的鳄鱼，吃东西、交配、游泳等等，并没有什么实质性的改变。但人类由于拥有极大的灵活性，成为了主导物种。这种对时间和人类进化的看法非常有趣，我完全同意你的观点，只是以前从未这样思考过。当我们出生时，我们就置身于此前所有神经可塑性的积累中，并从中汲取养分。
We often hear that, you know, that the human brain is kind of like a Macacumunkey brain with a super computer added on top of it, most of the prefrontal cortex, a bit more prefrontal cortex, prefrontal cortex, prefrontal cortex, prefrontal cortex. We have actually cortex in general. Interesting. We have four times as much cortex as our nearest neighbors in the animal kingdom, and that seems to be the magical stuff, not just prefrontal cortex.
我们经常听到这样的说法：人类的大脑有点像猴子的大脑，上面加了一个超级计算机，大部分是前额叶皮层，更多的前额叶皮层，前额叶皮层，前额叶皮层，前额叶皮层。实际上，我们一般都有皮层。有趣的是，我们的皮层数量是动物王国中与我们最近的邻居的四倍，这似乎就是神奇之处，而不仅仅是前额叶皮层。
And for, I'm sure the listenership knows this, but you know, the cortex is just the outer three millimeters of the brain, so that wrinkly bit, and that's the magic stuff, because it turns out cortex is a one trick pony. The reason the cortex looks the same everywhere is because it is the same. It's got the same circuitry, it's got six little layers, it's doing the same algorithms, and it gets defined by what you plug into it.
当然，我相信听众们都知道，皮层只是大脑外层的三毫米，所以就是那部分有皱纹的区域。而这就是神奇的部分，因为皮层其实只有一个特点。皮层在各个地方看起来都一样的原因是因为它本质上是相同的。它有相同的电路结构，有六层小层次，运行相同的算法，并且它的功能由你输入的内容决定。
So if you plug in a cable that's carrying visual information, then it becomes visual cortex, and we look at it, we say, oh, look, it detects the orientation of lines, and it detects motion, things like that. If you plug auditory information into it, it becomes auditory cortex, and so on. And it turns out, you know, the way we do this in textbooks is we make a picture and we say, look, that's visual cortex, that's auditory, that's a matter of sensory.
如果你连接一根传输视觉信息的电缆，那么它就会变成视觉皮层，我们观察它时，会发现它能够检测线条的方向，还能检测运动，诸如此类的功能。如果你将音频信息连接到它，它就会变成听觉皮层，以此类推。事实证明，在教科书中我们通常会画一幅图，然后指出，说，看看，这是视觉皮层，这是听觉皮层，实际上这是跟感官有关的。
But all this stuff is really flexible. It's so much more interesting than the textbook model because you can take the fibers and plug them in somewhere else. So you may know the study in 2000 by Morgonka Soared at MIT, where he in a ferret took the visual information, visual, the optic nerve, and he plugged it into the visual, sorry, into the auditory cortex.
但是所有这些东西都非常灵活。它比教科书上的模式有趣得多，因为你可以将纤维连接到其他地方。你可能知道MIT的Morgonka Soared在2000年的一项研究，他在一只雪貂身上进行了实验，把视觉信息，也就是视神经，连接到了听觉皮层。
And then the, what would have been the auditory cortex became visually responsive, and it started carrying about vision. So what does that mean? It means the cortex is a one trick pony, and we got so much more of it, including the prefrontal cortex. So that has two major effects. One is that there's a lot more room with our species in between input and output.
然后，本来该是听觉皮层的部位变得对视觉有反应，并开始转而负责视觉。那么这意味着什么呢？这意味着皮层并不是只能处理一种功能的"单一技巧选手"，我们的大脑皮层，包括前额皮层，还有更多的功能。这样带来两个主要影响。一是我们的物种在输入和输出之间有了更多的空间。
So with a squirrel or a cat, or even a macaque monkey, you throw some food in front of it, that sensory cortex is right next to the motor cortex. It's going to eat the thing, but we've got all this computational real estate in between in and out. So we can say, well, I'm on a diet, I'm trying whatever. You all eat it later. We've got all these other options that we can take.
所以对于松鼠、猫，甚至猕猴来说，如果你在它们面前扔一些食物，它们的大脑感觉皮层就在运动皮层附近，它们会很快吃掉食物。但我们人类的大脑中间有很多复杂的处理区域。所以我们可以说，“我在减肥，我会稍后再吃。”我们有很多其他的选择和决策空间。
That's one thing. And then the other thing is exactly what you pointed to, which is the prefrontal cortex, which allows us to simulate what ifs. It allows us to think about possible futures, simulate things in a way that we don't have to risk our lives doing it. We can simulate it and say, oh, that would be a bad idea. Oh, that'd be a pretty good idea. And then we can take the action.
这是一方面。另一方面，正如你所提到的，是前额叶皮层。它让我们能够模拟各种“假如”的情况。它让我们可以思考可能的未来，并以一种不需要冒生命危险的方式进行模拟。我们可以通过模拟来判断，哦，那是个糟糕的主意，或者，哦，那是个不错的主意。然后，我们就可以据此采取行动。
A couple of different questions. I'm a big fan of my grunk, as work. And I'm so glad you mentioned that work. It really points to the fact that while there are cortical areas that are genetically devoted by virtue of wiring when we arrive in the world to auditory or visual, that there's a lot of crossover, especially in the extreme cases.
几个不同的问题。我非常喜欢我的工作。而且我很高兴你提到了这项工作。这确实表明了这样一个事实：当我们来到这个世界时，虽然有些大脑皮层区域由于神经连接的原因天生就用于听觉或视觉，但在极端情况下，这些区域之间存在着大量的交叉联系。
So my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that if somebody is blind from birth, the real estate that would be allocated, division becomes allocated to tactile sensation, especially if they learn how to grow, read, maybe auditory processing, and because they rely on it more. So there's really no blank real estate in the cortex. It's all used. That is exactly right. So it turns out, you know, right, people who are born blind, what we call the visual cortex, the back of the head here, that gets taken over. It's no longer visual. It becomes devoted to hearing, to touch, to memory, things like this. And you can demonstrate that people who are born blind are better at hearing and at touch. And so on, they can discriminate things much more finely, same with people who go deaf. That auditory cortex, all that real estate, nothing lies, fallow in the brain.
我的理解是，如果一个人生来就失明，大脑中原本分配给视觉的区域会转而用于触觉，特别是如果他们学习如何使用盲文、阅读，或进行听觉处理，因为他们更加依赖这些能力。所以，大脑皮层中并不存在空白区域，一切都被充分利用了。这是完全正确的。对于先天失明的人来说，我们通常所说的视觉皮层（位于头部后方）会被重新分配，不再用于视觉，而是用于听力、触觉、记忆等功能。研究表明，先天失明的人在听觉和触觉方面更为敏锐，能够更精细地分辨事物。同样地，失聪的人也是如此，他们的听觉皮层会被其他功能取代，大脑中没有任何区域会闲置不用。
All that gets taken over for different tasks and they can do things like see your accent, you know, just by lip reading, they can tell where you've been the country you're from and so on. All of this demonstrates that, first of all, the more real estate you have, the better. We are, in a sense, if you've got all your senses, you have to share everything. And so we're a pretty good at vision, and hearing, and touch, and so on, but everything has to get shared. But there are pretty extraordinary things that happen when people devote more real estate towards one task. And by the way, this is a side note. This is one hypothesis about what goes on with savantism in autism, is that somebody, for whatever genetic set of reasons, ends up devoting a ton of real estate to let's say the Rubik's Cube or the piano or memorizing visual scenes or something. And then they are absolutely superhuman at it.
所有这些（能力和感知）可以用于不同的任务，比如他们可以通过唇读看出你的口音，从而判断你来自哪个国家。这些都表明，首先，拥有更多的“大脑资源”是有好处的。在某种意义上，如果你的所有感官都正常运作，你就必须同时分配这些资源用于多方面的感知。所以我们在视觉、听觉、触觉等方面都表现得不错，但这些能力都是共享同一“资源”的。然而，当人们将更多的“大脑资源”专注于一个任务时，会发生一些非凡的事情。顺便提一句，这也是关于自闭症中特殊才能的一个假设。因为某个人由于某些遗传原因，把大量的资源专门用于某一个领域，比如魔方、钢琴、记忆视觉场景等，然后他们在这个领域表现得超乎寻常。
That comes at the cost of other things. Let's say social skills that might be needed. But the general story is, if you devote a lot of real estate towards something, you're gonna get really good at it. I'm excited to share with you that Matina, the yearba mate drink that I helped create is now available at Sprout's Market Nationwide. Long time listeners of the Cuban and Lab podcast know that yearba mate is my preferred caffeine source. It provides a smooth energy lift without giving you the jitters. And it has many other benefits, such as helping regulate blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and more. Matina is my absolute favorite of all the yearba mate brands out there. And believe me, I've tried them all.
这会以牺牲其他事物为代价。比如说，可能需要的社交技巧。但总体来说，如果你对某件事情投入大量精力，你就会在这方面变得非常优秀。我很高兴地与大家分享，由我参与制作的Matina，现已在全国的Sprout's Market上市。这款年巴玛黛饮料是我长期以来的珍爱，长期听众知道，它是我首选的咖啡因来源，能够提供顺畅的能量提升，而不会让你感到紧张不安。它还有许多其他益处，比如帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻微抑制食欲等。Matina是我在所有年巴玛黛品牌中最喜欢的，真的，我都试过了。
The flavors are fantastic. I drink at least three cans of Matina every single day. You'll often see them on the table during our podcast recordings. I absolutely love the product. And I'm proud to now have it sold at Sprout's Market. Also, there's a great new offer. They are giving away a free can of Matina to anyone who buys it at Sprouts and sends in a photo of their receipt. To learn more about how you can get a free can of Matina, go to drinkmatina.com slash offer. Again, that's drinkmatina.com slash offer to get a can of Matina for free at your local Sprout's Market.
这些口味非常棒。我每天至少喝三罐Matina。你常常会在我们录制播客时看到桌子上有它。我非常喜欢这个产品，而且现在我很自豪能在Sprout's Market看到它的销售。此外，还有一个很棒的新优惠。只要在Sprouts购买Matina并提交购物小票的照片，就能免费得到一罐。想了解更多关于如何免费获取一罐Matina的信息，请访问drinkmatina.com/offer。再次提醒，访问drinkmatina.com/offer，以便在你当地的Sprout's Market免费获得一罐Matina。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Rora. Rora makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
今天的节目也由Rora赞助。Rora生产的水过滤器被认为是市场上最好的。不幸的是，自来水中往往含有会对我们健康产生负面影响的污染物。事实上，环境工作组在2020年的一项研究估计，有超过两亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到了PFAS化学物质，这些被称为“永久化学物质”的东西。它们与严重健康问题有关，比如激素干扰、肠道微生物群失调、生育问题以及许多其他健康问题。
The environmental working group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rora as a sponsor of this podcast. I've been using the Rora countertop system for almost a year now. Rora's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing. It's built from medical grade stainless steel and it's sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great and the water is delicious.
环境工作小组的研究显示，有超过1.22亿美国人饮用自来水中含有已知会致癌的高浓度化学物质。正因如此，我非常高兴能有Rora赞助这个播客。我已经使用Rora的台面过滤系统将近一年了。Rora的过滤技术能去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留像镁和钙这样的有益矿物质。它不需要安装或管道连接。其医疗级不锈钢材质和时尚的设计完美地适配您的厨房台面。实际上，我认为它是我厨房里的一大亮点。它外观精美，过滤后的水也非常好喝。
If you'd like to try Rora, you can go to rora.com slash Huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's Rora, r-o-r-a.com slash Huberman. I don't know if you saw this study that was published in science recently that explored early specialization in sport or creative endeavor versus kids that played a bunch of different sports or involved in a bunch of different creative endeavors. And it turns out that specializing too early on average doesn't play out so well in terms of peak of success later. Now, there are exceptions, right? But it turns out that being a bit more diversified in your physical activities and cognitive activities as a young person into the early teens even and beyond is more beneficial.
如果你想试试Rora，可以访问rora.com斜杠Huberman，获得专属折扣。再次说明，是Rora，r-o-r-a.com斜杠Huberman。我不知道你有没有看到最近发表在《科学》杂志上的一项研究，这项研究探讨了在运动或创造性活动中过早专注与孩子参与多种不同运动或参与多种不同创造性活动的对比。结果显示，过早专注平均来看对后来的顶峰成功效果并不好。当然，也有例外情况，但研究表明，在青少年甚至更长时间里，多参与一些不同的体能和认知活动会更加有益。
And to me, it kind of runs counter to my images of like Tiger Woods putting golf balls with his dad when he was still wobbling. He was so little, right? And then he becomes Tiger Woods. Or the William sisters who were, you know, black and test early on, I think that especially in the United States, we have this notion that early specialization is really what sets you up to be spectacularly good later. So I'm curious what your general thoughts are for the every person.
对我来说，这与我心中的一些形象有些相悖，比如泰格·伍兹小时候还在蹒跚学步时，就和他的父亲一起打高尔夫球。他当时还很小，对吧？然而他最终成为了泰格·伍兹。或者是威廉姆斯姐妹，她们在很小的时候就展示出了非凡的才能，尤其是在美国，我们有一种观念，认为过早的专业化训练可以让你在未来变得异常出色。所以我很好奇，你对普通人的一般看法是什么。
I mean, you have kids and some of us still are kids who are listening. And we all have plasticity into adulthood. You know, do you think that we come into the world with some genetic leanings toward particular activities being right for us or more right for us? And how do you think about it in terms of how many difficult, hard to access things we do just so that we're sure that we have a full experience of life? Because what I hear you saying and I totally subscribe to is that our early experience becomes the funnel through which we have more or less opportunity later.
我的意思是，你有孩子，而我们中有些人仍然是孩子。我们在成年后仍然具有可塑性。你认为我们是带着一些对特定活动有天生倾向的基因来到这个世界上的吗？或者说这些活动对我们更合适吗？你怎么看待我们努力去做许多困难且难以接触的事情，以确保我们能充分体验生活呢？因为我听到你说的——而且我完全同意——是我们的早期经历成为了一个渠道，通过这个渠道，我们在日后会有更多或更少的机会。
Like the kind of width of the funnel depends on how many things we did or didn't do early on. So this is really interesting because first of all, it takes somebody like the William sisters. They got drilled on tennis from day one. And this stuff can be taught and this is why they became champions. And this is obvious, but this is the same where you find with chess champions and golf champions, like Woods and so on. You have to really spend the time doing it.
漏斗的宽度取决于我们早期做了多少事情或者没有做多少事情。这很有趣，因为像威廉姆斯姐妹这样的例子从一开始就接受网球训练。这些技能是可以教授的，这正是她们成为冠军的原因。这很明显，同样的道理也适用于国际象棋和高尔夫的冠军，比如伍兹等人。你必须真正投入时间去做这些事情。
Now, I find this interesting for a few reasons. One is that cognitively, you can understand how to, you know, what a forehand or a backhand is, hit in tennis, but to actually get good at it, you have to burn it down into the circuitry. So actually, let me back up for one second, which is, the reason that we have brain plasticity is because this is how a brain makes things that you do fast and efficient. So when you're doing a task a lot like serving tennis or something, you're taking that from the software to the hardware of the brain.
现在，我觉得这很有趣，原因有几个。一个原因是，从认知上来说，你可以理解网球中的正手或反手击球是什么，但如果你想真正做到熟练，就必须把这个技能融入到脑中的神经回路中。让我先退一步说，大脑具有可塑性是因为这是让你做事情快速高效的方法。当你频繁进行某项任务，比如打网球发球时，其实是在把它从大脑的“软件”变成“硬件”。
Let's say I'm an amateur tennis player and there's Serena Williams I'm playing against her. It turns out, surprisingly, when we're playing, she's beaten me like crazy, but my brain is the one using all the activity. I'm the one burning all the calories with my brain. Why? Because she has burned tennis into the hardware of the brain. So it's fast and efficient. I, on the other hand, am trying to simulate lots of things and figure out where I should go and all that.
假设我是一个业余网球选手，而我要对抗的人是小威廉姆斯。当我们比赛时，意料之中的是她把我打得落花流水，但让我惊讶的是，我的大脑却是活动最活跃的，是我在用大脑烧卡路里。为什么呢？因为对于她来说，网球已经被刻在了大脑的“硬件”中，所以她的思考速度快而且高效。而我则是在努力模拟各种情况，试图弄清楚应该怎么走位和应对各种变化。
So the brain does this for reasons of efficiency. Obviously, the brain's main job is to save energy because we are mobile creatures who run on batteries. And so this is one of the big things about plasticity. So people get extraordinarily good by doing things over and over. The these three women, the Polgar sisters who are chess champions, they're, you know, the best to my knowledge are still the best three female chess players in the world. Their father from day one, the started teaching them how to do chess and so on and they all became world champions at this.
大脑为了提高效率而这样做。显然，大脑的主要任务是节省能量，因为我们是需要依靠"电池"来活动的生物。所以，这就是大脑可塑性的重要性之一。人们通过反复练习，能够变得非常出色。比如波尔加三姐妹，她们都是国际象棋冠军。据我所知，她们仍然是世界上最优秀的三位女性棋手。从她们出生开始，父亲就开始教她们下棋，因此她们都成为了世界冠军。
You know, the thing about whether you need to have diversification, that's an interesting question. I can see why it would be useful because you're learning different ways, different moves about it in the same way that if you learn how to snowboard Anzki, you know, you might, you might get better at both of them. But I gotta say, when children grow up, let's say, trilingual, or even bilingual, they end up having a lower vocabulary in both languages than if they grow up, model, linguically. Really?
你知道吗，关于是否需要多样化，这个问题很有趣。我可以理解为什么它有用，因为你可以通过不同的方式和方法来学习，就像你学会滑雪和滑单板滑雪一样，你可能会在两者上都变得更好。但我得说，当孩子们长大时，如果他们是三语甚至双语，他们在每种语言中的词汇量会比他们只学一种语言时要少。这是真的吗？
Yeah. It's just because of the amount of practice you get with a language. Kids still do your second language homework. In California, it's growing up here. It's very useful to know English and some Spanish. Yeah. Very, very useful. In fact, I wish I'd gotten better at Spanish when I was a kid. I don't know if you could see. And my father's born and raised in Buenos Aires. Yeah. But we didn't speak Spanish at home, at least not very much.
是的，这主要是因为你在使用一门语言时获得的练习量。孩子们仍然在做他们的第二语言作业。在加州，成长在这里，掌握英语和一些西班牙语是非常有用的。是的，非常非常有用。事实上，我希望自己小时候能把西班牙语学得更好。我不知道你是否注意到了，我的父亲是在布宜诺斯艾利斯出生长大的。但是我们在家里不怎么讲西班牙语，至少不是经常讲。
So, you know, I can tell you learn a musical instrument and learn a second language, a musical instrument for your own enrichment. And those around you. But the second language thing I think is extremely useful, at least in California, I find it very useful. But you're saying, I'm still resisting this by the way now because they say, look, I can do Google Translate or my Metasunglasses and so they're resisting it. Yeah, but Google Translate is not Google Relate. I totally agree. You know, I mean, it's, and I'm hardly fluent, but I can get by now. I'm pretty good. I've been practicing my Spanish more and more and just by virtue of living in Southern California. That just happens. But I think knowing a second language and being able to have that kind of face-to-face conversation with someone, it's even the struggle of it is enriching in a way. Because you're forcing your brain to do some work.
所以，你知道，我可以建议你学习一门乐器和一门外语，乐器是为了丰富自己和你周围的人。而我认为学习第二语言是非常有用的，至少在加州，我觉得它非常有用。但是你可能会说，我现在还在抵制这一点，因为他们说，我可以使用谷歌翻译或者我的智能眼镜，所以他们在抵制它。是的，但谷歌翻译不是谷歌互通。我完全同意这一点。虽然我还不是很流利，但我现在能应付得不错，因为生活在南加州，我一直在不断练习西班牙语。这种情况就是这样发生的。但我认为，懂得第二种语言并能够与人面对面交流，即使这种交流有困难，也是有益的。因为这会迫使你的大脑进行一些思考。
My father spoke eight languages fluently without accent. And that's because he went to medical school in Europe and did his clinical rotations in different countries. And it was a young man. So everywhere he went, he got a girlfriend. And then he had the incentive to learn the language. And by the way, maybe we'll come to this, but when it comes to brain plasticity, the reward systems are a big part of what makes change happen in the brain. Actually, let me just mention, this is tangential, but let me just mention this while it's on my mind. You know, a lot of people really for the last 30 years, ever since the internet became a big thing, really worried about what this is gonna mean for kids and education. I think it's terrific. I am very optimistic about this because what kids started getting a few decades ago was this opportunity to learn about something right when they were curious about it. So they wanna know how to fix the bicycle tire or what is this space physics thing or whatever.
我父亲能流利地讲八种语言，而且没有口音。这是因为他在欧洲上的医学院，并在不同的国家进行临床实习。他很年轻，每到一个地方都会交一个女朋友，这促使他学习当地语言。顺便提一下，也许我们会谈到这个，当涉及到大脑的可塑性时，奖励系统在大脑发生变化的过程中起着重要作用。其实，这有点跑题了，但既然我想到了，就顺便提一下。你知道吗，自从互联网兴起以来的过去30年里，很多人都非常担心这会对孩子和教育意味着什么。但我认为这是很棒的现象，我对此持乐观态度。因为几十年前，孩子们开始有机会在他们感兴趣的时刻学习新知识。他们会想知道怎么修理自行车轮胎，或者这门空间物理学是什么等等。
And they asked the question and they get the answer. Why does that matter? It's because brain plasticity really happens when you have the right cocktail of neurotransmitters present. And that cocktail happens to map onto curiosity or engagement when I'm slightly older than you are, but when we were in school, the teacher teaches you the thing, they just dump everything. Like, oh, the battle of hastings happen in 1066 and you may or may not ever need to know that. But what kids get now is information right in the context of their curiosity. That makes a big difference because stuff really sticks. And I have been extraordinarily impressed with young people that I meet. I meet all these young people who say these extraordinary things. I say, wow, how did you know that? And they've watched TED talks, they've asked Alexa, they've talked to Chatchy PT and they get the information and it sticks.
他们问问题，然后得到答案。为什么这很重要？因为当存在合适的神经递质组合时，大脑的可塑性才真正发生。而这种组合恰好与好奇心或参与感相关联。虽然我比你稍微年长一些，但在我们上学的时候，老师通常把所有知识一股脑儿地教给我们，比如“黑斯廷斯战役发生在1066年”，而我们可能一辈子都不需要知道这些。但现在的孩子们是在他们好奇心的背景下获得信息的。这产生了很大的不同，因为这样的知识真的能铭刻在脑海中。我对我遇到的年轻人印象深刻。他们往往说一些令人惊讶的话。我常常问：“哇，你怎么知道的？”他们回答是看了TED演讲，问了Alexa，或者和ChatGPT交流过，他们获取信息，并且信息能牢牢记住。
Super interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess I'm reflecting my age to everyone when I say that I remember being interested in something and then having to biker skateboard down to tower books or go to the library and look things up and I tell myself that the effort involved in going to get it, actually it's useful, but you're right. I had I been able to look up what I was interested in and get it right then. I probably would have spent more time implementing the information because I was interested in all sorts of things that usually involve building something or doing something that was gonna make a big mess and frustrate my parents, right? But I spent a lot of time searching for the information. Plus you remember how dinner table conversations used to go which is that everyone argues about something and then someone says, well I think it's this, and the other person says no, I think it's that and then it just sort of stops there because no one knows the right answer.
这真的很有趣。我之前没有从这个角度想过。或许当我说我记得对某些事情感兴趣，然后不得不骑自行车或滑板去书店或图书馆查资料时，我其实是在向大家展示我的年龄。我告诉自己，为了获取信息而付出的努力其实是有用的，但你说得对。如果当时我能立即查询到自己感兴趣的内容，我可能会花更多时间去实践那些信息，因为我对各种各样的事情感兴趣，而这些兴趣通常涉及到建造什么东西或者做些会搞得一团糟的事情，这常常让我父母感到头疼，对吧？但我花了很多时间去寻找信息。你还记得以前在餐桌上的对话吗？大家常会为某件事争论不休，一个人说，我认为是这样，另一个人说，不，我认为是那样，然后话题就戛然而止，因为没有人知道正确答案。
But now everyone whips out their phone, gets the answer and then it keeps going, which is really terrific. Yes, dissolved some of the social dominance that comes about when one person's word is the word that everyone has to just kind of believe just because they say it with more certainty that they don't remember whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, or the grandfather, whoever or the grandmother in some cases who knows. Now it gets checked against the internet and clawed for me or chat GPD for a lot of other people. I realized that the question I'm about to ask can't be answered completely. But given what you know about plasticity and the fact that yes, we come into the world with some pre-programming of our brain circuitry but we have some control over what the inputs are.
但现在每个人都会拿出手机，找到答案，然后继续讨论，这真的很棒。这确实打破了以往在社交场合中，由某个人的话被大家无条件地相信的局面，只因为他们说得似乎更有把握，而别人可能忘记了确切的内容。是的，是这样的，以前可能是由爷爷奶奶，或者一些自以为是的长辈说了算。现在每个人都可以通过互联网查证，别人可以用各种助手像是聊天机器人或搜索工具。我意识到，我接下来要问的问题不可能有一个完整的答案。但考虑到你对大脑可塑性的了解，以及我们虽然生来就有一些脑回路的预设，但我们仍可以控制输入的信息这一事实，请你分享一点见解。
Some, depending on our circumstances. It depends on what you mean by we. So as infants of course, we have no control over that. As an adolescent, as a teen, as a 20 year old, the same plasticity extends into adulthood, still as adults, although it's harder. Some control over what one learns or does. What do you think are sort of the core elements to making sure you build a healthy, well-rounded nervous system? Nobody's really ever attempted to answer this question. You know, a howler monkey learns all the things that a howler monkey needs to do. Humans, as you said, the benefit of all the technology that comes from the plasticity of those that came before us. And so maybe kids don't need to learn a second language but what do you think are sort of the essentials? I mean, obviously learning to communicate and understand, learning to move.
这取决于我们的具体情况以及你所指的"我们"的范围。作为婴儿，我们显然对这一点没有控制权。而青少年、十几岁时和二十多岁时，这种"可塑性"会延续到成年期，但作为成年人，这种改变就会变难。我们对自己学什么或做什么有一定的控制力。那么，你认为构建一个健康、全面发展的神经系统的核心要素是什么呢？没有人真正尝试回答过这个问题。拿吼猴来说，它会学会吼猴需要做的一切。而人类，如你所说的，得益于前人可塑性带来的所有技术。因此，孩子或许不需要学习第二语言，但你认为哪些是必需的技能呢？显然，学习沟通和理解、学习移动是其中的一部分。
But do we have some sense of how you check off the core 10 boxes of neuroplasticity and make sure that by time you land in adulthood or even if you're still an adult, you're doing the quote-unquote best that you can with your brain. This is a tough question I realize. I mean, I would say two things. One is try to maximize long every axis. So try to be an athlete, try to be a scholar, try to be somebody who's good at social life and has a lot of friends. All of these axes of life, it's worth spending the time doing that. And if obviously we're in an era especially now where there are a million ways to waste time, I sit on airplanes, X people, and they're playing candy crush for the whole flight. I just feel like, what a shame because there's so much you can be putting into your brain and making happen. You can be reading books, you can be listening to podcasts, anything like that.
这段话的大意是：我们是否了解如何完成大脑可塑性的10个核心条件，并确保在成年时，或者即使已经是成年人，也能尽可能充分地利用大脑？我意识到这是个棘手的问题。我会说两件事。首先，尽量在各个方面都做到最好。例如，尝试成为一名运动员、学者，或者在社交生活中游刃有余、朋友众多的人。这些人生的各个方面都值得投入时间去发展。显然，我们目前处于一个容易浪费时间的时代，尤其是现在，有无数的方式可以浪费时间。我坐飞机时，看到一些人整趟航班都在玩"糖果传奇"。我觉得真可惜，因为有那么多事可以充实你的大脑。你可以看书，听播客，或者做其他类似的事情。
Okay, so there's that. But the other half that I would say is a lot of what we care to be depends a lot on what's going on in the future. And I'm fascinated by for children now in schools, what choices they should make because who the heck knows what careers are going to exist in 20 or 30 years from now. Therefore, the main things that you can concentrate on, I think are critical thinking and creativity. Those are the main things for them to figure out how to do. What are some good ways in your opinion to access critical thinking and creativity? I can imagine a number of them.
好的，就是这样。但我还想说，很多我们在乎的事情其实很大程度上取决于未来的发展。我对现在在学校的孩子们感到十分好奇，他们应该做出怎样的选择，因为谁也不知道未来20或30年会有哪些职业出现。因此，我认为他们可以专注的主要是培养批判性思维和创造力。这是他们需要掌握的主要能力。你觉得有哪些好的方法能够培养批判性思维和创造力呢？我可以想象出很多种。
Yeah, here's something I find very optimistic about, AI in the realm of education. In any classroom, it's going too fast for half the kids and do slow for the other half of the kids. What we now have the opportunity for is really individualized education. One way this could be implemented is AI debate. So you take any hot button issue, abortion, gun control, whatever you want, and you debate with the AI. And you get graded based on the quality of your arguments. And then you switch sides and you take the other side and you argue again, this is the kind of thing you could never have enough teachers for. They would never have enough patients for AI's terrific at this. And by the way, it's really important so that students get a 360 view of issues instead of ideological capture. So this is a terrific way to teach critical thinking to every student, not just the kids on the speech and debate.
当然，这里有一个我对人工智能在教育领域的乐观看法。 在任何课堂上，进度对于一半的学生来说太快，而对另一半学生来说太慢。 现在我们有机会真正实现个性化教育。 其中一种实施方式是通过人工智能进行辩论。 你可以选择任何热点话题，比如堕胎、枪支管控等等，然后与人工智能进行辩论。 你的成绩将基于论点的质量。 接着，你需要转换立场，再次进行辩论。 这种教学方式是教师数量和耐心都难以支持的，但人工智能非常擅长。 此外，通过这种方式，学生可以从多角度了解问题，而不是被某种意识形态所左右。 这是一种向每位学生教授批判性思维的绝佳方式，而不仅仅针对参加演讲和辩论的孩子。
Okay, creativity, that's easy. That has to do with learning the foundational stuff and then doing remixes, bending, breaking, blending, doing new versions of it. And I think schools can implement this easily and without any extra expense, which is, you have to teach the foundational stuff but you compress that so you have one extra week at the end of each semester. And then that last week you say, great, great, take everything you've learned and now make your own thing with it. Using all the elements that we've learned, then to break it, blend it, make your own version of this. That kind of exercise is, that is creativity. That's all creativity is, is taking your storehouse of knowledge and doing remixes. We should be teaching that.
好的，创造力其实很简单。它涉及到学习基础知识，然后进行重新混合、弯曲、打破、融合，创造新版本。我认为学校可以轻松实现这一点，而且无需额外费用。你需要教授基础知识，但可以压缩这些内容，以便在每学期末有一周的时间。然后，在最后一周，你可以告诉学生，把所学的一切运用起来，创造属于自己的东西。利用我们学到的所有元素，然后进行打破、融合，制作自己的版本。这样的练习就是创造力的体现。创造力就是利用你储备的知识进行再创作。我们应该教授这样的技能。
So critical thinking and creativity. Gert, the German philosopher had said there are two bequests that a parent can give a child. One is roots and one is wings. And my interpretation that has always been critical thinking and creativity. Love that. Thank you for making it practical. That's something I think any and all of us could invest some more time in. I also agree it's very easy to waste time on the internet. I have a separate phone for social media. That solved a lot of issues. Not that it was really contaminating my life that much. I like social media, like teaching and learning there and some entertainment there, but by putting it on an old phone, so X and Instagram are just on that phone.
批判性思维和创造力。德国哲学家格特曾经说过，父母可以给予孩子两份遗产：一个是根，一个是翅膀。我的理解一直是指批判性思维和创造力。我非常喜欢这个观点。谢谢你让这个概念变得实用。我觉得我们每一个人都可以多花一些时间在这上面。我也同意，在互联网上浪费时间非常容易。我为社交媒体专门准备了一部手机，这解决了很多问题。其实，社交媒体并没有严重影响我的生活。我喜欢社交媒体，在那里可以学习、教学，也能找到一些娱乐。但通过把社交媒体放在一部旧手机上，X 和 Instagram 就只在那台手机上使用。
People send me things by text. I have to transfer them over. Sometimes I see them, sometimes I don't. My default setting is no longer to just look at my phone and look at social media. Yes. It has increased my productivity and just my happiness and my level of attention. Also when I do social media, I'm doing it like a perfect, like watching a show or doing something that I would devote time for, is to not always just scrolling in the background. Do you find yourself picking up that phone sometimes? Actually. No, and if I do, if I find myself doing that reflexively, what I call a Supermax Prison Lockbox, where you can't code out of, and the fun for me, and get this, this is like really weird. I don't know what this says about my psychology.
人们通过短信给我发送一些东西，我需要将它们转移到其他地方。有时我能看到这些信息，有时我看不到。我现在的默认设定不再是只看手机和刷社交媒体。是的，这提高了我的工作效率，也增加了我的快乐和注意力。此外，当我使用社交媒体时，我会像看一场节目或做一些我愿意花时间去做的事情那样专注，而不是总是无意识地在后台刷。你有没有注意到自己有时会拿起手机？其实没有，如果我发现自己不由自主地这样做，我会设置一个类似"超级监狱锁箱"的机制，让自己无法破解这个循环，好玩的是，这就像一个很奇怪的挑选。我不知道这对我的心理有什么启示。
I'll put it in there and I'll dial in, you know, okay, like four hours. And then I hit the Supermax button and then there's this 15 second countdown and then I'll go, five, six, seven, eight, nine hours. And then I go, okay, cool, like nine hours. So there's this weird thing where you don't want to let it go, but then you, I really enjoy the freedom from it so much is that extra hours that I add on and that last thing feels like a gift to myself. And then I'm like, I'm gonna have a great day. And then when I get back on it, certainly there's this dopamine dynamics thing where you go, oh, this is a lot of fun, but you have to be super careful because they'll suck you in. I mean, just amazed at how fast time goes, which we're gonna talk about time perception.
我会把它放进去，然后拨号，大概四个小时。然后我按下“超级最大化”按钮，会有15秒倒计时。接着，我就会加到五、六、七、八、九个小时。然后我想，好吧，九个小时。这里有个奇怪的现象，就是你不想放手，但我真的很享受从中获得的自由，所以我会多加几个小时，那种感觉就像是给自己的一份礼物。然后我就觉得，我一定会有个很棒的一天。当我再次投入其中时，肯定有种多巴胺驱动的动态反应，你会觉得这很有趣，但必须非常小心，因为它们会让你沉迷。我对时间流逝的速度感到惊讶，我们会谈到时间感知问题。
Before we do that though, I have a question about plasticity. I've been waiting to ask you and only you because we have a lot of friends that are neuroscientists, but I have a feeling you've thought about this more than anyone, which is, are there any things that we can do to extend the window of plasticity, or are there activities like learning an instrument or some sort of game who knows that gives us our capacity for plasticity more height, more width, as opposed to just, you know, the same principles, you need to focus on the thing. Then you need to make errors and you need to do some error correction. You get to sleep that night, you rewire, you keep a trial and error. When we know that the basics now, I think most people have heard them, but what can we do to broaden our ability or heighten our ability to get plasticity?
在我们进行下一步之前，我有一个关于神经可塑性的问题。我一直想问问你，因为我们有很多做神经科学的朋友，但我觉得你对此的思考可能比任何人都深入。我的问题是，我们能做些什么来延长神经可塑性的窗口期，或者说有没有一些活动，比如学习一种乐器或某种游戏能够提升我们的可塑性？传统的做法是你需要专注于一件事，然后犯错，之后进行错误纠正。晚上睡觉时，大脑会重组，你需要反复尝试。虽然这些基础知识大家可能都听过了，但我们能做些什么来拓宽或提高大脑的可塑性能力呢？
Two words, seek novelty. That's the whole game. Is he got to continually challenge the brain and this is something that as we get older, it's more important than ever. It's finding new things that we haven't done before. You always have to keep yourself between the levels of frustrating but achievable. And as long as you're trying to think, so yes, a new instrument is great. Speaking a new language is great. You know, obviously we're in a world that's moving very fast. So just keeping up with the technology and figuring out, well, there's this new opportunity here with this piece of software, whatever. All that stuff is great.
两个字，寻求新意。这就是全部的游戏规则。我们需要不断挑战自己的大脑，随着年龄的增长，这一点变得尤为重要。我们要寻找那些我们以前没有做过的新事物。你总是要让自己处于"令人挫败但可实现"的状态中。只要你在努力思考，尝试学习新乐器是很棒的，学习一门新语言也是很好的。当然，我们生活在一个快速发展的世界中，所以要跟上技术进步，去了解那些新的机会，比如某个新软件等等。这些都非常有益。
This is the critically important part. You may know these studies, there's been this study going on for decades now, called the, what is it, the Religious Order Study up in Chicago area, where there's a whole bunch of nuns and priests that agreed to donate their brains when they passed away. And then when they donate their brains, the researchers examined them, do autopsy on it. What the researchers found is that some fraction of these nuns had Alzheimer's disease, but nobody knew it when they were alive. Nobody saw any cognitive deficits. Why? It's because these women died in their 90s. And to the day they died, they lived in these convents.
这是至关重要的一部分。你可能知道这些研究，有一项研究已经进行了几十年，称为宗教团体研究，地点在芝加哥地区。有很多修女和神父同意在去世后捐赠他们的大脑。研究人员在收到大脑后会进行检查和解剖。研究发现，其中一部分修女在世时患有阿尔茨海默病，但当时没有人知道她们患病。没人发现她们有任何认知障碍。为什么呢？因为这些女性一直生活在修道院里，直到90多岁去世。
And in the convents, they had social responsibilities. They had chores. They were fighting with their sisters. They were playing games with their fellow sisters. They were singing songs. They were doing things all the time. So they kept their brain active. So even as their brain was physically degenerating with Alzheimer's disease, they were building new roadways. They were building new bridges over these areas. This is one of the big things that tells us that contrast this with people who retire at 65 and they go home and they sit on a couch and watch the television. They don't have as good an outcome because they're not challenging their brain anymore.
在修道院里，她们有社会责任，要做杂务。她们有时会和姐妹们争吵，也会一起玩游戏，唱歌，时刻保持忙碌。因此，即使她们的大脑因为阿尔茨海默病在逐渐衰退，她们仍在建立新的思维通路。这种活动是在建造新的桥梁穿越病变区域。这说明了一个重要的道理：与那些65岁退休回家后，整天坐在沙发上看电视的人相比，她们的结果要好得多，因为前者一直在挑战自己的大脑，而后者则不再这样做。
So it is so important to be doing things. You know, I once heard the expression that there's nothing as hard that the brain does than other people. And so for these women living in convents, they were constantly dealing with, because you never know what somebody's gonna say or how they're gonna react to what they're going to do. So this is great challenge opportunity for the brain. Anyway, the point is we need to always find that with ourselves. Oftentimes people will ask me, like an older person will say, hey, I do crossword puzzles, is that good? Yeah, it's good until you get good at it and then stop and do something that you're not good at. And constantly find the next thing that's a real challenge for you. That's the key thing about plasticity.
所以，做事是非常重要的。我曾听过一句话，说对大脑来说，没有什么比处理人际关系更难的事情了。因此，对于那些生活在修道院中的女性来说，她们总是在应对这些挑战，因为你永远不知道别人会说什么，或者他们对某件事的反应会怎样。这对于大脑来说是一个极好的挑战机会。无论如何，重点是我们需要不断找到自己的挑战。常常有人问我，比如一些年纪大的人会说，我做填字游戏，这样好不好？是的，这很好，但当你变得擅长时，就该停下来去做一些你不擅长的事情，不断寻找下一个对你来说真正有挑战性的事情。这就是大脑可塑性的关键。
Essentially, the backstory is this. As you well know, your brain is locked in silence and darkness. It's trying to make a model of the outside world. And its whole goal is to make a successful model. And when it succeeds at that, it says, oh, okay, wait, I've got good predictions about what's going on, then it stops changing. I mean, that's its goal is to stop changing. And if you're constantly pushing and challenging it with things that doesn't understand, then it'll keep changing. Amen to that. I've been trying to beat the drum that the agitation that one feels when trying to learn something new, it's actually a reflection in part of the catacolomines, like adrenaline and neuroponephrine, the frustration and the agitation that we feel, that's the feedback signal to the brain that, hey, this is different than the stuff you know how to do.
本质上，背景是这样的。大家都知道，我们的大脑生活在寂静和黑暗中，它努力构建一个外部世界的模型。它的全部目标是成功创建这个模型。当大脑成功时，它会说：“哦，好吧，我对正在发生的事情有了不错的预测。”然后，它就不再改变。也就是说，它的目标是停止改变。然而，如果你持续向大脑提出超出其理解范围的挑战，它就会不断改变。对此，我非常赞同。我一直在努力传达一个观点：当我们尝试学习新事物时所感到的不安，实际上部分反映了体内的儿茶酚胺（如肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素）的作用。我们感到的挫败感和不安，是大脑的反馈信号，告诉我们：“嘿，这与你已经掌握的东西不同。”
I mean, because the neurons are not thinking, they're firing, right? And so that neurochemical milieu associated with frustration is one of the triggers that generates plasticity, which actually, I think you can resolve this question for me. I'm struck by the fact that there's so many studies showing that the adult brain can change. Yes. And some of the more interesting ones involve boosting the levels of some neuromodulator, dopamine or acetylcholine or neuroponephrine or epinephrine, serotonin. But what's so interesting to me is that, seems like you can boost the levels of any of those and get plasticity. It's not like one neuromodulator gives you the opportunity for plasticity. So many of the interesting studies on psychedelics are using psychedelics that are kind of like serotonin.
我的意思是，因为神经元不是在思考，而是在传递信号，对吧？因此，与挫折相关的神经化学环境是触发大脑可塑性的因素之一。实际上，我希望你能帮我解答这个问题。有很多研究表明成年人的大脑是可以改变的，这让我很惊讶。其中一些更有趣的研究涉及增强某些神经调节物质的水平，比如多巴胺、乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素和血清素。但让我感到特别有趣的是，似乎只要增加这些物质中的任何一种的水平，就能促进大脑可塑性。并不是只有一种神经调节物质能带来可塑性的机会。许多关于迷幻药的有趣研究使用的迷幻药其实有点像血清素。
I mean, they act on different receptors, but they're very serotonergic. I would remind people of this because people really like to beat up on SSRIs. And I agree they have their problems inside effects, but they've also helped a great number of people. But whether it's SSRIs or it's psilocybin, they're both just tools for plasticity that drive serotonin. But we know you can amplify a pseudocalling, get a window of plasticity. This is a speculative question, but why do you think it is that there's a sort of equal potential of neuromodulators where boosting any one of them can open plasticity or the window or the opportunity for plasticity?
我的意思是，它们作用于不同的受体，但它们与血清素关系密切。我想提醒大家这一点，因为很多人喜欢批评SSRI（选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂）。我同意它们确实有一些问题和副作用，但也帮助了很多人。不论是SSRI还是裸盖菇素，它们都只是促进可塑性和驱动血清素的工具。我们知道通过增强某种神经调节作用可以获得一个可塑性窗口。这是一个推测性的问题，但你认为为什么不同的神经调节剂似乎有相同的潜力，能通过提升任意一种来开启可塑性窗口或机会？
Okay, a few things on this. As you well know, all the neuromodulators exist in the dance with each other. And fundamentally, I think we're going to come to understand this in 50 years as sort of combination locks of things. And the way we keep looking at it in science currently is, ah, here's a Zedalcolator, here's serotonin, and so on. It's probably not the right way to look at it. Certainly not how the neurons are looking at it. Okay, that said, a serotonin really feels to me like the main one involved in plasticity. When you are a baby, you've got a serotonin going everywhere whenever you're trying to figure out the world, whenever something's not matching a prediction and you've got a serotonin going everywhere that says, hey, I got to figure out what just happened and how to link this with what I did and so on.
好的，这方面我想说几点。正如你所知，所有的神经调节物质都相互作用。基本上，我认为我们将在未来50年内将其理解为某种组合锁。目前的科学研究方式是分开研究，比如研究某种物质如多巴胺或血清素等，但这种方式可能不太正确，也不是神经元真实的运作方式。即便如此，我确实感觉血清素在神经可塑性方面起主要作用。当你还是婴儿时，每当你试图了解这个世界，每当事情与预期不符时，血清素就会广泛分泌，让你去弄明白发生了什么，以及如何将其与自己所做的事情联系起来。
As you get older, it's more like, you know, a point-to-list artist who just dabs things here or there. You get a serotonin going to these very locally in very, in small places and that's where you make changes. Why? That's because as you get to be an adult, you've got a better and better model of the world. You don't want to change everything. You just change, like, oh, I didn't realize there was that button on the coffee machine that did this new thing or whatever. So you just change a little bit set of time here.
随着年龄的增长，一个人的思维就像是一位点彩派画家，只在这里或那里轻轻点几下。你会发现，脑中的血清素只在一些小的、局部的地方发挥作用，而就是在那里你会做出改变。这是因为，当你成长为一个成年人后，你的世界观模型会越来越完善，你不需要对一切做出改变。你只是会意识到：“哦，我没发现咖啡机上还有这样一个新按钮。”所以你只是会对一些细节做出一点点的调整。
We're in this really interesting situation in the history of our species where now we can do things like, hey, what if we just crank up a serotonin or, you know, obviously we've done lots of things with dopamine. We always find when we tweak these things that it's complicated. Just as one example, you know, with Parkinson's, people have less dopamine. And so the medications are to crank up the dopamine. What that led to, you may know this fascinating story is probably 25 years ago now, where, you know, observant clinicians noted that people on these Parkinson's medications were becoming hypercompulsive gamblers. They were blowing their families' fortune on online gambling and Las Vegas and so on. And what they realized is when you crank up the dopamine, that changes your risk of version such that people were taking it. So now it's a contraindication that's listed on the model. You know, if you notice gambling, turn down the amount here.
我们现在处于人类历史上一个非常有趣的阶段，我们能够做一些事情，比如提高血清素水平，当然，我们也在多巴胺上做了很多事情。每次我们调整这些化学物质时，总会发现情况很复杂。举个例子，帕金森病患者的多巴胺水平较低，因此药物的作用就是提高多巴胺水平。可能在大约25年前，细心的临床医生注意到使用这些帕金森病药物的患者开始变得过度冲动地赌博，他们把家里的钱都花在网络赌博和拉斯维加斯等地方。后来，人们了解到，增加多巴胺会改变一个人的风险偏好，从而导致这些行为。所以现在，这种药物的使用说明中标明了这一禁忌症：如果出现赌博行为，就需要减少药量。
So anyway, whenever we start dialing these around, we always find things that are a little bit out of our predictive realm. But the general story is that your brain's trying to put together this model of what's going on. And as it gets better and better, it's doing less and less plasticity. I do want to point out though, that parts of the brain become less plastic and other stay plastic your whole life. As an example, your primary visual cortex at the back of the head, that locks down early. You really can't do much change that. And you know, there were studies by Logan Thetis' lab years ago, where they looked at changes to, let's say, the retina in an adult monkey, and they expected to see changes in the visual cortex of the monkey, and they didn't see any changes at all.
所以，每当我们开始在这些方面展开讨论时，总会发现一些超出我们预测范围的事情。不过，总的来说，您的大脑正在努力构建一个关于当前情况的模型。随着这个模型不断完善，大脑的可塑性也会逐渐降低。不过，我想指出的是，大脑的某些部分会变得不那么可塑，而其他部分则终生保持可塑性。比如，位于头部后面的初级视觉皮层，很早就会固定下来，几乎无法改变。多年前，Logan Thetis的实验室做了一些研究，他们观察成年猴子视网膜的变化，并预期会在猴子的视觉皮层看到变化，但事实上并没有观察到任何变化。
And that surprised them given all the plasticity literature. But it's because the visual cortex locks down. In contrast, these downstream areas from the visual cortex that care about things like recognizing faces or new brands of fast food restaurants or whatever it is, those stay plastic your whole life because there's constantly new data coming in on those. So the general story is the primary areas are like the, I think about it like the software kernels, where if you're at Microsoft, for example, there's parts of the code that no one ever touches because that's like how to add two numbers and multiply whatever, that's the kernel of the code you never touch that. But you get these higher and higher application layers on top of that.
翻译这个英语段落到中文，并保持意思尽量易读：
这让他们感到惊讶，考虑到所有关于可塑性的文献。但是，这是因为视觉皮层会"锁定"。相比之下，那些从视觉皮层向下游的区域，比如负责识别面孔或新的快餐品牌的部分，它们会一直保持可塑性，因为不停地有新的数据进入。因此，大体上的说法是，初级区域就像软件的内核。如果你在微软，比如说，有些代码的部分是没人会碰的，因为那就像是如何做加法和乘法的基础，这是代码的核心，不能随便动它。但是在其之上会有越来越高层次的应用程序层。
And that's essentially how to think about primary sensory cortices and then all the stuff downstream from there. Perfect analogy for people to understand, how much challenge to embrace. I mean, not trying to defrag the whole system. And I mentioned psychedelics. I do think they have some interesting therapeutic potential. I also worry about it. I can tell you examples of people that got, I guess, now days they call it one-shoted. They take Iowaska a couple of times and they are forever different in ways that does not serve them. Those examples don't get talked about quite as often as there are also many people who seem to benefit from these things.
这段话大致可以翻译成：
这基本上是关于如何理解初级感觉皮层以及随后的一系列过程的思考方式。这是一个让人们理解所需挑战程度的完美类比。我并不是在建议要彻底重建整个系统。同时，我提到了迷幻药。我确实认为它们具有有趣的治疗潜力，但同时我也有一些担心。我可以举几个例子，有些人现在称之为“一次改变”，他们可能服用了几次亚马逊毒藤茶（Iowaska），结果他们性格和行为发生了永远性的不利变化。这些例子不常被提及，尽管也有许多人似乎从中受益。
So plasticity, it seems, is not the goal. Directed plasticity is the goal. That's right. And it's very hard to direct. So I feel like, let's imagine you could take some cocktail of neurotransmitters and get total plasticity of your brain. I don't think you'd want that. You wouldn't be you anymore. Who we are is the sum of our memories and the sum of our skills that we've built. And that keeps changing. We're always a moving target. And who you will be in five or 10 years will be different. But I don't think we'd want the plasticity of an infant. Even though when you're doing, let's say, language learning, you say, I wish I could learn this as well as I did when I was seven.
所以，看起来可塑性本身并不是目标。目标是定向可塑性。没错，而这很难实现。试想一下，如果你能服用某种神经递质的"鸡尾酒"，让你的大脑具有完全的可塑性，我觉得你不会想要那样的。因为你就不再是你了。我们是谁，是我们的记忆和技能的总和，而这些一直在变化。我们就像一个不断变化的目标。未来五到十年后的你将会与现在不同。但我认为，我们并不想要像婴儿那样的可塑性。即使在学习语言时，你可能会想，希望自己能像七岁时那样轻松学习。
But generally, it's not a state that you would desire, I think. If you're a regular listener of the Hubertman Lab podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink, AG1. And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try. For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1. They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3K2, a bottle of Omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula AGZ, which by the way, is now the only sleep supplement I take. It's fantastic. My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good. AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
但总体来说，我认为这并不是你想要的状态。如果你是Hubertman Lab播客的常听众，你肯定听过我谈论过的维生素矿物质益生菌饮料AG1。如果你一直在犹豫是否要尝试，现在是个绝佳的机会。在接下来的几周里，AG1推出的优惠活动让你在首次订购时可以获得一个完整的补充套餐。这个套餐包括一瓶D3K2维生素、一瓶Omega-3鱼油胶囊，以及一包新的睡眠配方AGZ的试用装。顺便说一下，现在AGZ是我唯一使用的睡眠补充品，非常棒。我在服用AGZ后的睡眠质量好得令人震惊。AGZ是一种饮料，这样就不需要服用大量药片了。
It tastes great. And like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever. I absolutely love it. Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com slash Hubertman to get started today. You've mentioned a few times future self. I think all of us are inherently interested in our future selves, and whether the things of our past present and what we have control over going forward is going to put us in the best future self possible, right? Humans love to optimize or fantasize about optimal.
味道很棒。就像我之前说的，它让我睡得特别好，比以往任何时候醒来都更有精神。我非常喜欢它。再次提醒，这是限时优惠，所以务必访问 drinkag1.com/Hupertman，立即开始吧。你提到过几次“未来的自己”，我想我们都对自己的未来感到好奇，并且关心过去、现在以及未来我们能掌控的东西是否能帮助我们成为最佳的未来自己，对吗？人类总是喜欢优化或幻想最优的状态。
But how should we think about thinking about our future self? Or should we not do that? Should we just avoid that loop-to-loop and get real stoic about it and just live in 10 minute time blocks or one minute time blocks? It raises a really interesting question, I think, of where should we set our time horizon? To not just feel the best, but to be our best and to feel our best going forward. Yeah. Our capacity to think about our future selves is the most special part of being humans. And if we didn't do it, if we said, I'm going to be stoked about, yeah, you'd eat the cupcake and you'd do all the things that wouldn't serve your future self.
我们该如何思考我们未来的自己呢？或者我们根本不该去想这些？是不是应该避免这样的反复思考，变得现实一些，像斯多葛学派那样生活在10分钟甚至1分钟为单位的时间格子里？这确实提出了一个很有趣的问题：我们应该将时间视角定位在哪里，才能不仅感觉良好，还能成为更好的自己，不断提升自己的幸福感。思考未来自我的能力是人类最独特的部分。如果我们不这样做，只是觉得"活在当下"就好，那么你可能会吃那块蛋糕，做出许多对未来自我无益的事情。
I'll never eat the cupcake, like a real stoic and then starve to death. Even if the cupcake were the only thing, right? What would the stoic do? That's right. So, yeah, we actually spend most of our time not in the here and now. We're reminiscing about the past and we're simulating possible futures. Your mind is a movie theater where we're constantly thinking about where things are going. But this is great. This is what makes us able to do all the things that humans do successfully.
我绝不会吃那块纸杯蛋糕，就像一个真正的斯多葛派人士，然后饿死。就算蛋糕是唯一的食物，对吗？真正的斯多葛派人士会怎么做？没错。所以，我们实际上大部分时间都没有活在当下。我们沉浸在对过去的回忆中，或者在想象可能的未来。我们的头脑就像一个电影院，我们总是在思考事情的发展方向。但这很好，这正是让我们能够成功做成人类所做的一切的原因。
And in our own lives, this matters so much because we're able to think about who do I want to be. Now, as you know, we've got this rivalry in the brain. We've got all these voices going on at the same time, all these different networks running. So, for example, if I put the cupcake down in front of you, part of your brain wants to eat that. It's delicious. It's a rich energy source. Party brain says, don't eat it. I want to stay fit and so on party brain says, okay, maybe I'll eat part of it, but I'll go to the gym later or I promise my girlfriend that I'll go do this thing.
在我们的生活中，这一点非常重要，因为我们可以思考自己想要成为什么样的人。正如你所知道的，我们的大脑中存在着竞争。有许多声音同时在脑海中回响，各种不同的网络在运行。例如，如果我把一个纸杯蛋糕放在你面前，你的大脑中有一部分会想要吃掉它，因为它美味可口，是丰富的能量来源。但理智的声音会说，不要吃它，我想保持健康。于是另一部分的大脑可能会说，那好吧，我吃一点，但之后我要去健身房，或者答应女朋友去做一些事情。
Like, we've got all these voices. You can cuss it yourself. You can control yourself. You can contract with yourself. And the question is who's talking to whom? It's all you, but it's parts of you that have these different drives. Now, the part that's really amazing about us is we've got lots of short-term drives, but we also have this capacity to look into the future and think about who we want to be. And that is essentially subserved by our prefrontal cortex, which as we mentioned earlier, is something that is this, you know, the size of it is unique to humans.
就像我们有这么多内心的声音。你可以自己控制自己的情绪，可以自我约束，也可以与自己达成某种约定。关键在于，究竟是谁在和谁对话呢？其实，所有声音都是来自你自己，只是来源于你内心不同的欲望。我们身上真正令人惊讶的一点是，我们有诸多短期的欲望，但同时也具备远眺未来、思考自己想成为什么样的人的能力。这种能力主要依赖于我们的大脑前额叶皮层，这个区域的大小是人类独有的特征。
All of our closest cousins in the animal kingdom don't have a prefrontal cortex. That's a fraction of what we have. That's what allows us to unhook from the here and now. Okay, and here's the thing. I have been fascinated by this for a long time about how we sometimes know, okay, my future self is gonna act badly in this situation. So I'm gonna do something now so that my future self can't act badly. So this is the topic of my next book. It's called the Ulysses Contract and where this term comes from is in the Odyssey, Odysseus, otherwise known as the Ulysses, is coming home from the Trojan War and he realizes that way up ahead he's gonna pass the island of the sirens where we've got these beautiful female creatures who sing these songs that are so beautiful.
在动物王国中，我们最亲近的“亲戚”都没有前额皮质，而这是我们大脑的一部分，让我们能够不局限于眼前和此时此刻。有趣的是，我一直对这样一个现象着迷：有时候我们可以预见到自己的未来会在某种情境下表现不佳，于是我们会在现在采取措施，防止未来的自己做出不好的行为。这就是我下一本书的主题，叫做《尤利西斯契约》。这个术语的灵感来自《奥德赛》。在故事中，奥德修斯，也就是尤利西斯，在从特洛伊战争回家的路上，意识到不久后要经过有着“海妖”歌声诱惑的小岛。这些女性生物的歌声如此动听，让人无法抗拒。
It beggars the mind of the sailors and everyone crashes into the rocks and dies. Ulysses really wants to hear the song, but he knows like any mortal man he's gonna fall for this and crash into the rocks. So what does he do? He has his men lash him to the mast so he can't move. He has them put beeswax in their ears so they can't do anything and he tells them, no matter what I do, no matter how much I'm screaming, just keep going, just keep saying smart. Right, it's smart because what is happening is the Ulysses of sound mind is making a contract for the future Ulysses who he knows is going to behave badly.
这首歌让水手们的思维混乱，所有人都撞上了岩石，最终丧命。尤利西斯非常想听这首歌，但他知道自己作为一个凡人，在听到歌声后很可能会不由自主地撞上岩石。那么他该怎么办呢？他让船员们把他绑在桅杆上，这样他就动不了。他让船员们在耳朵里塞上蜂蜡，这样他们就听不见任何声音，还叮嘱他们：不管我做什么，不管我如何尖叫，继续前进，保持理智。这样做真的很聪明，因为他是在为将来可能失去理智的自己预设了一个保护措施。
So he's lashing him to the mast and what I've been fascinated by is the ways that we do this in our lives all the time. So the example you gave a few minutes ago about locking up your phone in one of these lock boxes is a perfect example because what you're making sure is that the Andrew of two hours from now can't do the wrong thing because you know he might. You know he's gonna be tempted. So you take away that temptation. By the way, I recently met an older gentleman who told me about an older woman that he met years ago who used to take her money, her cash and freeze it in a block of ice in the freezer so that she couldn't spend the money.
所以他把自己绑在桅杆上，而我一直对我们在生活中这样做的方式感到着迷。您刚才提到的把手机锁在一个锁盒里的例子就是一个完美的实例，因为这样做可以确保两小时后的自己不会做错事，因为您知道自己可能会被诱惑。所以您把诱惑移除。顺便说一下，我最近遇到一位年长的先生，他告诉我多年前他认识的一位老年女士，她习惯把自己的现金冻在冰块中，这样她就不能轻易花掉这笔钱。
Oh my goodness. Until she really needed it. Yeah, I don't have a money spending thing and I actually have pretty good control with the phone and with social media. For me, there's also a, I don't wanna call it a sick pleasure. There's a bit of a pleasure in knowing that it's completely off limits because it means I can't even look at it for 10 seconds. I don't know, I think it involves something over control of things that I feel like are trying to control me. Yeah, exactly. Which I do not like. Exactly. Because you care about your future self and you want future Andrew to do the right thing.
天哪，直到她真的需要它的时候。是的，我没有花钱的问题，在使用手机和社交媒体上其实有不错的自制力。对我来说，还有一种，我不想称之为病态的乐趣，就是知道这些东西是完全禁止的，这意味着我不能甚至看它10秒。我不知道，我觉得这涉及到某种对那些试图控制我的事情的控制，对，没错，我不喜欢那样，确实是这样。因为你关心你未来的自己，并且希望将来的安德鲁能做正确的事情。
So there are a million ways to make these Ulysses contracts. I've been studying this for years and I, yeah, anyway, so I decided to write a book on this because the way that we deal with our future selves is just this fascinating thing because your future self is a little different than who you are now. But with time, we come to understand that our future self will behave badly in different situations. And so we just try to cut those off. I'll give a couple examples. One is it's super useful to get social pressure involved.
有无数种方法可以制定这样的"尤利西斯契约"。我研究这个已经有好几年了，所以我决定写一本书，因为我们如何处理与未来自己的关系是件很有趣的事。你的未来自己和现在的你有些不同。随着时间的推移，我们开始明白，未来的自己在不同的情况下可能会表现不佳，所以我们会尽量提前防范。我来举几个例子，其中一个就是借助社会压力是非常有效的方法。
So for example, I'm guessing you and I both do this, going to the gym is something we enjoy. But it's really useful to have a buddy where you say, hey, I'll meet you at the gym at eight tomorrow morning and then even if you wake up, you're a little tired, your shoulder hurts or whatever, you gotta go because he's gonna be there. So getting social pressure involves a good idea. I found this thing where it's a boot camp where you sign up for it and every morning, you know, go jogging together, do pushups, whatever. But if you don't show up, the group jogs to your house and they stand on your front lawn and they do jumping jacks and they scream your name until you come out. Amazing.
例如，我猜测你和我一样，都喜欢去健身房。但如果有个搭档说“嘿，我明天早上八点在健身房等你”，这真是个好办法。即使你早上醒来时有点累，或者肩膀有点痛，你也得去，因为他会在那里。因此，社交压力是个好主意。我发现了一个训练营活动，你报名后每天早上就和大家一起跑步、做俯卧撑之类的。如果你不去，他们就会跑到你家，在你家前草坪上做开合跳，还会大声喊你的名字直到你出来。太棒了。
Yeah, it's really good to get that to commit to that sort of thing so that you're really gonna show up. There are ways to do this where you put money on the line. So you can say, for example, there was a woman who was trying to quit smoking and she tried for years to quit smoking. So what she did is she wrote a $10,000 check and gave it to her friend and said, if you catch me smoking, I want you to donate this check to the KKK, which to her was the most diverse thing that could ever happen with her money. And that's what prevented her from smoking because the sting of knowing that she gave her money to the KKK was the worst thing that she could imagine.
是的，确实非常好能下定决心做这样的事情，这样你就真正会去坚持。有一些方法可以做到这一点，比如把金钱作为激励。比如，有位女士多年来一直尝试戒烟，但一直没成功。于是她写了一张一万美元的支票交给她的朋友，并说，如果你看到我抽烟，就把这张支票捐给3K党（她认为这是她的钱能用于的最糟糕的事情）。正是这种对最糟糕结果的恐惧，阻止了她吸烟。
So there are a million ways to do these Ulysses contracts, but what they have in common is how do you lash yourself to the mass so you'll keep the good behavior you want? Yeah, the example of this woman writing the check is interesting because I could ask, why couldn't she access her inner, clearly has a lot of inner fight, right? Like she really stands so strongly on one camp, which I agree the KKK horrible organization would never want to support them in any way whatsoever. And yet she needed to do that, right? She needed a punishment, a potential punishment.
有很多方法可以设置 "尤利西斯契约"，但它们的共同点在于，如何让自己坚持想要的良好行为。比如，这位女士写支票的例子就很有趣，因为我可能会问，为什么她不能挖掘自己的内在力量呢？显然，她内心有很强的斗争力，比如她非常坚定地反对三K党，绝对不愿意以任何方式支持这个可怕的组织。然而，她还是觉得需要这样做，需要一个潜在的惩罚措施来约束自己。
And so it speaks to how even if we know something and feel something so strongly in the present, it still becomes very hard to access our best choices. But there's something about the future self that we're not even in yet, that we fear our future self so much more than we can't handle the discomfort of our present self. It's almost like, and so we tether those in the Ulysses contract. Yeah, it's a kind of wisdom that we come to understand how we will behave when we're not in our present, sober rational moment.
这段话表达了一个观点，即使我们在当下对某件事情非常了解、感受深刻，但仍然很难做出最佳选择。这是因为我们对未来的自己感到畏惧，甚至比不能应对当前自己的不适感更为强烈。这种情况就像古希腊神话中的“尤利西斯契约”，即我们在清醒理智的时刻，以某种智慧预见并约束自己在未来的行为。
We come to understand, for example, people who are trying, who are alcoholics and they're trying to break that. The first thing they're told at Alcoholics Anonymous is clear all the alcohol out of your house because you might think, okay, I'm done, I'm firmly gonna not drink anymore. So you put the alcohol away up in a high shelf, but on a festive Friday night or a lonely Sunday night or something, you might go up there. Your future self might do that. So what you do is you get rid of the temptation. Same thing with people who are trying to battle drug addictions, they're told, never carry more than $20 of cash in your pocket because at some point, you're gonna run some guy who's trying to sell you drugs. And if you got the money, it's burning a hole in your pocket by the drugs.
我们了解到，例如，对于那些努力戒酒的酒精依赖者来说，在匿名戒酒会上，他们首先被告知要把家里的所有酒清理掉，因为虽然他们可能觉得自己已经下定决心不再喝酒了，但难免在一个欢乐的周五晚上或孤独的周日晚上会心动。那么未来的你可能会去喝掉那些酒，所以最佳的做法就是去掉这些诱惑。对于那些努力戒毒的人来说，他们被建议永远不要在身上携带超过20美元的现金，因为你可能会遇到卖毒品的人，而如果你口袋里有钱，就很容易被诱惑去买毒品。
I don't think we can trust our future selves. One, we're in a moment of reflection, and we can think about who we wanna be, it's worth setting into place some walls. So that's about avoiding bad behaviors. What about building toward future self where we're trying to envision a better version of ourselves that involves actively doing things? So there's always do's and don'ts in order to become our better self. How does Ulysses contract play in? When it's not about the sirens, when it's about knowing that we want to be this person or have these attributes or having done something and trying to tie our future self to our present behavior. How good are we at that in general?
我认为我们不能完全信任未来的自己。首先，我们现在正处于一个反思的阶段，我们可以思考想成为什么样的人，因此值得设立一些界限，以避免不良行为。那么，我们该如何为未来更好的自己努力呢，这需要我们积极行动。为了成为更好的自己，总是会有该做和不该做的事情。奥德修斯契约在其中有什么作用呢？当它不是关于海妖的诱惑，而是关于我们知道自己想成为怎样的人、拥有怎样的品质或完成怎样的事情时，我们该如何将未来的自我与现在的行为联系起来。从总体上看，我们在这方面做得怎么样呢？
Yeah, better or worse than avoiding bad behavior. Oh, we're terrible at all this stuff. I mean, take New Year's resolutions. I mean, everybody makes New Year's resolutions, they rarely last a week or two before they drop off. People get busy, people get tired, or whatever. So it's just as important with the positive things to hook things to that. For example, this idea of putting money on the line, there are various websites where you can do this, you say, okay, look, I'm going to put 50 bucks on the line that I want to be able to bench 250 by this state, something like that.
好的，比起避免坏习惯，说得好听些。哦，我们在这些事情上都做得很糟糕。比如说，新年决心，每个人都定新年决心，但这些决心很少能坚持一两个星期。人们忙啊，累啊之类的。所以，把这些正面的事情联系起来同样重要。比如，有这样一种想法，就是把钱作为激励，有些网站可以做到这一点。你可以说，"好吧，我赌50美元，到某个日期我要能卧推250磅"。
And then you've given your money to this company and you have to get to that point so you get your money back. There are lots of ways to do this. Obviously putting, I think you got James Clear on a little while ago. And there's all kinds of good ideas that he's got about, you know, put your running shoes near the door or whatever so that it's easy. You get rid of the friction to go do things like that. But all of those moves are for your future self. When you put your shoes near the door before you go to sleep that night, you are doing something because you know your future self's going to be a little bit lazy and tired.
把这段话翻译成中文，意思尽量表达清楚且容易理解：
然后，你把钱给了这家公司，为了拿回你的钱，你必须达到那个目标。有很多方法可以做到这一点。显然，我记得不久前你邀请了詹姆斯·克利尔（James Clear），他分享了很多好主意，比如把跑鞋放在门口，以便减轻做事情的阻力。 但这些行动都是为了你未来的自己。当你在睡前把鞋子放在门口时，你是在为自己未来的那个有些懒惰和疲倦的自己做准备。
I have friends that are, I'll just call them, what I would call them to their face because it's a friendly exchange are kind of neurotic, right? They tend to overthink things. If they're going to go running at 8 a.m. and it's 802, they're like, I can't go because it's 802, not 8. I'll go at 9, got to do it on the hour, this kind of thing. And then I know people who are like, you just do things and you don't think about it as much and they're good at suppressing that voice. I think we assume that the chatter, the neuroses doesn't exist for them, but I think it does. They're just better at saying like, like ignoring that inner voice.
我有一些朋友，我称呼他们时会直接说，他们有点神经质，是出于友好的交流。他们总是过度思考。如果他们计划8点去跑步，但到了8点02分，他们会觉得不能去了，因为不是8点整。他们会决定9点再去，必须要在整点，这类事情。而我也认识一些人，他们做事情时不会过多考虑，擅长抑制内心的声音。我想我们常常以为他们没有那些内心的嘈杂和神经质，但实际上是存在的，只是他们更擅长忽视内心的声音。
We're never trained how to do this. We're never taught as kids. Here's when you need to really think and deliberate and here's when you just need to just do it. And it's interesting to think about, okay, different career paths, different life requirements and so forth, but I feel like people fall into two camps with this. Some people need to think and analyze less and do more and some people actually need to, you know, probably still do, but maybe think a little bit more about their behavior and reflect a bit more and they would probably both say, crazy about this.
我们从未被训练如何做这件事，从小也没人教我们。什么时候应该认真思考和深思熟虑，什么时候只需要立刻去做。而这很有趣，因为不同的职业道路和人生需求各不相同。我觉得人们在这方面分成两个阵营：有些人需要少思考和分析，多去行动，而另外一些人则可能还是需要行动，但也许应该多想一想他们的行为，多一点反思。他们可能都会对此感到困惑。
I won't tell you where I land. I think I'm kind of in the middle. No, I'm just kidding. It depends on what's at hand for most people, I think. What do you think that's about? The ability to suppress the various versions of oneself or not, the inner voice. Yeah, you know, I would say one of the most fascinating things we've discovered in neuroscience for my money is just this issue that along anything we measure, there's a spectrum. So it just takes them like the internal voice. For my wife, for example, she describes it as her inner radio. She's always hearing her inner voice. I don't really have one. I just never hear that.
我不会告诉你我的立场在哪。我觉得我可能处于中间。开玩笑啦。我想对于大多数人来说，这取决于眼前的情况。这是关于什么呢？是关于能否压抑内心不同版本的自己，那个内心的声音。是啊，我觉得神经科学中最吸引人的一个发现就是任何我们能测量的东西都有一个光谱。就比如说内心的声音。拿我妻子举个例子，她把这个称为“内心电台”，总是能听到她的内心声音。我自己就没有这种体验，我几乎从未听到过内心的声音。
So we're on obstinates of the spectrum that way, but you know, one of the things I've studied is a Fantasia all the way to Hyper Fantasia. That means when, you know, if I ask you to visualize an ant crawling on a table cloth towards a jar of purple jelly, some people see it like a movie in their head that's called Hyper Fantasia. Some people have no picture at all in their head. That's called A Fantasia. And everywhere is, everyone is somewhere in between on the spectrum. What does the middle look like?
所以，我们在这个范围的两端都有顽固的意见。但你知道，我曾研究过从无幻想到高度幻想的情况。这意味着，如果我让你想象一只蚂蚁在桌布上爬向一个装着紫色果冻的罐子，有些人能像在脑海中看电影一样清晰地看到这个画面，这就叫高度幻想。有些人则在脑海中完全没有图像，这就是无幻想。而每个人都处于这个谱系的某个位置。那么，中间的情况是什么样的呢？
So if I do that, maybe everyone can do this right now. Also for an experiment if you're driving, don't close your eyes. Picture a sun coming over the mountain and the rays of the sun poking through the clouds. And then it starts raining and rains coming down. So the question is, do you see it as clearly as a movie or do you have really no visual anything in your head or are you somewhere in between? Typically this is judged on a scale from one to five or five as a movie, one is no visual at all. And you know, three is in between. Where do you stand on that?
所以如果我这样做，或许每个人现在都可以尝试一下。作为一个实验，如果你正在开车，请不要闭上眼睛。想象一下太阳从山后升起，阳光透过云层射出。然后开始下雨，雨水倾泻而下。问题是，你能否像看电影那样清楚地“看到”这个画面，还是你脑海中没有任何视觉图像，或者你介于两者之间？通常，这种体验用一个一到五的量表来判断，五代表像电影一样清晰，一则代表没有任何视觉图像，而三则是介于两者之间。那么你处于哪个阶段呢？
I feel like I can see it, quote unquote, in my mind's eye, but it's almost like I'm looking at a silhouette of it. So even though I want to see bright, you know, rays of sunshine, one of my favorite things in life, I know they're there, but they're actually pale, pale yellow. It's almost as if it's a moral peak than it would be in real life. Yeah. You're saying people with hyper, hyper fantasia see it as the same way I would on my phone. Essentially yes. They're seeing it like vision. Now I happen to be a phantasia. So it's very hard, you know, I've studied this for years. I've interviewed hundreds of people on this. And so I get their description, but I can't, I can't picture that myself. By the way, it's an interesting quick tangent. For years, I've talked with Ed Katmull about this. Ed Katmull is the guy who started Pixar. Pixar was all these terrific animated films and so on. Ed has all these patents on like how to do ray tracing to get the, you know, to get these animated characters looking as amazing as they do.
我感觉我能“看到”它，用引号括起来的看到，是在我脑海中看到，但几乎就像是在看它的剪影。因此，即使我想看到明亮的阳光，那些是我生命中最喜欢的东西之一，我知道它们在那里，但实际上却是淡淡的黄色。这几乎像是一个道德的顶峰，比起在现实生活中看到的。我想你是说，有超象幻想症的人看到的就像是我在手机上看到的一样。基本上是的，他们看得就像是视觉上的体验。而我却是一个无象幻想症者，所以这对我来说非常困难，你知道，我研究了这个好多年。我采访了数百人，听到了他们的描述，但我自己却无法想象。顺便提一句，这是个有趣的题外话。多年间，我一直和艾德·卡特姆讨论这个问题。艾德·卡特姆是皮克斯的创始人。皮克斯出品了很多精彩的动画电影，艾德还拥有许多关于如何进行光线追踪的专利，以使这些动画角色看起来如此惊艳。
He was surprised when he discovered that he was a phantasia. He doesn't picture anything in his head. So he ended up giving this questionnaire to everybody at Pixar. And it turns out most of his best directors and animators are a phantasia. They don't see anything in their head. And nobody, I think would have predicted that because it seems so strange to this visual, you know, magisterium of Pixar. But I have a hypothesis about why this is. It's because the kid who grows up who's a phantagic, when they're asked, okay, draw a horse. You know, the kid's thing next to them who's hyper phantagic says, oh, I know what a horse looks like. And just draw it. But the poor a phantasia kid has to really stare and figure out like, okay, how does that work? And so on. And they get better at drawing as a result. That's why all his best animators and drawers are people who grew up a phantagic.
他发现自己是无视觉思维者时感到很惊讶。他在脑海中无法形成图像。于是，他把一个调查问卷发给了皮克斯的每个人。结果发现，他最优秀的导演和动画师大多数也是无视觉思维者。他们脑海中也看不到任何画面。我想没有人会料到这一点，因为这对以视觉为重的皮克斯来说似乎很奇怪。但我对此有一个假设：因为无视觉思维的孩子在被要求画马时，旁边那些具有高度视觉思维的孩子会说：“哦，我知道马是什么样子的。”然后就可以直接画出来。但无视觉思维的孩子则必须仔细观察，弄清楚马是什么样子的。因此，他们在绘画方面反而变得更出色。这就是为什么他最优秀的动画师和绘画者都是从小就是无视觉思维者。
Interesting. I'm just thinking about that movie. Have you seen that movie Bofinger? No. With Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy? Where's Bofinger? Or those are just listening. It's where you kind of make two, you know, an L and a sort of reverse L. And it's like how, you know, it's about making a movie in LA. And it's hilarious. It's spectacularly funny. It's got those two folks, I just mentioned Heather Graham, a bunch of other people. But he's constantly going around and kind of envisioning, you know, this is the movie. This is the movie, exactly. And so I always thought people that make movies are going through life thinking, okay, like there's the shot and there's a shot. But I think what you're saying is that there's somewhere in between where people have this kind of fantasy life of like, okay, here's the script. And then they can't really imagine it. And so they have to put more work into materializing it.
有趣。我正在想那部电影。你看过《电影拍摄风云》这部电影吗？没有。就是有史蒂夫·马丁和艾迪·墨菲主演的那部？《电影拍摄风云》在哪里？或许你只是随便听听罢了。这是一个有趣的电影，讲的是在洛杉矶拍电影的故事，非常搞笑。除了我刚提到的史蒂夫·马丁和艾迪·墨菲，还有希瑟·格拉汉姆及其他很多演员。但主角总是在四处走动，并想象“这就是电影，这就是电影”，所以我一直觉得电影制作人就是这样，生活中每时每刻都在想“这是个镜头，那是个镜头”。但我认为你在说的是某种介于两者之间的状态，人们有这种幻想生活，心里想着“这是剧本”，但他们不能完全想象出来，因此需要投入更多精力去将其实现。
Yeah, okay. Well, they have a dialogue with the page. So if you're a guy drawing and you know, you're looking at the horse or you're picturing what, you know, Ariel, the mermaid looks like or whatever, you're trying lines of scratching and doing things because you don't come to the table or say, oh, I know what a mermaid looks like and you draw it. So they just end up getting more practice and they get better at it. I love this stuff because what we're really getting at here is, you know, I think as you mentioned, everyone has kind of individualized hardware and software, but there are some commonalities. And, you know, wouldn't it be spectacular if we knew, you know, which, you know, just like we learned, okay, here are the macro nutrients and you perhaps want them in different proportions depending on who you are and what you need.
好的，好吧。他们与纸页进行一种对话。比如说，如果你是一个画画的人，当你看着马或者想象小美人鱼爱丽儿的样子时，你会用线条来涂涂画画，因为你并不是一开始就知道美人鱼长什么样然后直接画出来。所以画得多了，他们就越来越熟练。我喜欢这种过程，因为我们实际上要探讨的是，每个人都有自己独特的“硬件”和“软件”，但也存在一些共性。想象一下，如果我们知道，就像我们学习宏量营养素一样，通过因应各自的需求调整比例，那该多好啊。
And, you know, and you need to, as a kid, you should probably learn how to like climb and run and, you know, and assuming you have access to all of that, you know, and jump a little bit, but you know, maybe you won't be an athlete, but you need to like be active at some point. And then you, and we tend to figure out what we're good at. And then really lean into those trenches. And then by then we're getting evaluated for it and the way we're evaluated puts us on a career track. And there's very little opportunity to go back and fill in blanks, right? There's, you know, I'm never gonna be a musician in part because I'm just not willing to put in the work because there are other things I'd rather do with my plasticity, right?
作为一个孩子，你需要学习如何攀爬、跑步，如果条件允许的话，还可以跳一跳。也许你不会成为一名运动员，但你需要活跃起来。随着时间推移，我们会发现自己擅长什么，然后在这些领域深入发展。之后，我们会根据表现被评估，这种评估方式就决定了我们的职业轨迹。回头去弥补不足的机会很少。比如，我永远成不了音乐家，部分原因是我不愿意在这方面投入努力，因为我还有其他更想用我的精力去做的事情。
So, and maybe that's best. So big, big picture question. Do you think that human evolution and the progress of building technologies reflects the fact that people get siloed into different tracks? And on the whole, that's advancing our species, right? You've got people that are hunter-gatherers still very good at that and building, and other people building, weaponry and other people building, AI technologies and that it would be detrimental to our species if everybody got sort of a core neuroplasticity training, learning how to do a little bit of everything, right? Or is that what we see as chance actually part of the reasons why humans are the curators of the Earth, not just the prefrontal cortex, not just the extended window of plasticity, but how we are afforded different opportunities to work with that plasticity.
好的，也许这就是最好的方式。那么，从一个大的角度来看问题。你认为人类进化和技术进步是否反映了人们被分隔到不同的轨道上这一事实？总体来说，这促进了我们物种的发展，对吧？有些人仍然非常擅长狩猎采集及其建设，而其他人在打造武器，还有人在开发人工智能技术。如果每个人都接受一种核心的神经可塑性训练，学会一点各种技能，会对我们的种群造成不利影响，对吗？还是说我们所看到的偶然现象实际上是人类成为地球管理者的原因之一？不仅仅因为我们有前额皮质，不仅仅因为我们有延长的可塑性窗口，还因为我们能有不同的机会去利用这种可塑性。
Yeah, I'd say a couple of things. One is we're clearly predisposed to particular things. And so, for example, I'd like to be a swimmer as good as Michael Phelps, but I just don't have the wingspan that he does. He's got like, I don't know, seven feet between his fingertips or something. There's no way I'm going to be able to be as good as he is. That's a genetic thing that he drops in the world with that I don't. Fine. So given that, people are off on different trajectories anyway. The way I think about this, I don't know how this will translate just in terms of audio, but like a space-time cone in physics is where you start in one spot, and then there are all these different trajectories you can take into the future. Picture this like you're starting at the bottom of the ice cream cone, and you can take any different trajectory as long as it still exists within the ice cream cone.
好的，我来说几个方面。首先，我们对某些事情是有倾向的。比如说，我想成为像迈克尔·菲尔普斯那样优秀的游泳运动员，但我的臂展没有他那么长。他的臂展可能有七英尺左右。这是我无法与之匹敌的，这是他与生俱来的优势，而我没有。所以，基于这一点，人们的成长轨迹本来就不同。我把这个理解为，就像物理学中的时空锥一样，你从一个点出发，然后可以进入不同的未来轨迹。想象一下你从冰淇淋筒的底部出发，只要在这个圆锥范围内，你可以选择不同的轨迹。
Okay. So, we drop into the world with our genetic skills and predispositions. We have childhoods that we don't choose. We're born into a cultural language and era that we don't choose. And that defines the limits of the ice cream cone about where we can go with that. As far as specialization goes, economists will argue this is part of what makes a very healthy society is that, you know, some people become the lumberjacks and some the lawyers and some the accountants and whatever. You know, I do feel like we're in a really great era though, in general, in humankind, where kids do get very broad educations, and they're sort of encouraged to try everything and spend a few years in karate and in soccer and in piano lessons and so on. That's wonderful.
好的。我们降临到这个世界，带着我们的基因技能和倾向。我们的童年不是自己选择的；我们生在自己没有选择的文化、语言和时代中。这些因素决定了我们所能达到的上限。就专业化而言，经济学家会认为这有利于建立一个健康的社会，因为有的人会成为伐木工人，有的人会成为律师，还有的人会成为会计师等。我觉得在人类历史上，我们正处于一个非常好的时代。现在的孩子们可以接受广泛的教育，他们被鼓励去尝试各种事物，比如花几年时间学习空手道、踢足球、上钢琴课等等。这些都是很棒的。
So my father was a psychiatrist, and he always said, really, the whole job of a parent is just to open doors for the child. That's it. So you give the child all these lessons, you open all these doors, and then the kid takes their own path, depending on, you know, this extraordinarily complicated formula of things that we'll ever understand, but they go through one door and not the others. Kierkegaard said, every man starts as a thousand men and dies as one. And what he meant, of course, was that you start with all this pretend you could do all you could have been a great saxophone or whatever, but you're gonna die having done exactly what you did and not the other path.
所以，我的父亲是一名精神科医生，他总是说，实际上，父母的整个职责就是为孩子打开大门。仅此而已。你给孩子提供各种各样的课程，打开所有这些门，然后孩子根据一套我们永远无法完全理解的极其复杂的因素，走出属于自己的路。他们会选择走进某一扇门，而不是其它的。哲学家克尔凯郭尔曾说，每个人开始时都是一千个人，最终会死去成为一个。他的意思当然是，你一开始可能有无数种可能性，可能成为一位出色的萨克斯演奏家或者其他，但最终你的人生成就正是你所选择的，而不是其他可能的路径。
So what's weird about life is that, yeah, every door that you choose, some others closes the result. Kierkegaard seemingly understood that the nervous system starts out hyperwired, and then a lot of learning is the pruning back of connections and strengthening of the remaining ones. Exactly right. Exactly right. You know, so you, of course, no. The brain starts, but you got essentially a fixed number of neurons. There's something to debate about whether there's a few new neurons born humans or not, put that aside. What happens is over the first two years, those neurons connect more and more and more and more. And what you end up getting is this hyperconnection by the time you're two years old, and from there, it's just a matter of pruning an overgrown garden.
生活中奇怪的一点在于，每当你选择一个门时，总会有其他门因此关闭。基尔克果似乎理解了，神经系统一开始是高度连接的，许多学习过程就是剪掉多余的连接，并增强剩下的连接。没错，确实如此。你知道，大脑开始时基本上有一个固定数量的神经元。对于人类是否会产生少量新神经元还有一些争论，但暂且不谈这个。关键是，在最初的两年里，这些神经元不断地彼此连接。等到你两岁时，你会发现神经系统已经形成了非常复杂的连接，从那时起，就像修剪一座过度生长的花园一样，需要剪除多余的部分。
And that's all that's happening. And the way the pruning happens is based on what you're experiencing in the world. The world is what prunes your garden and strengthens particular paths and lets other paths go. As a bridge, perhaps, between plasticity and time perception, which we've been sort of doing already, I have this practice that I've been doing for a few years in hopes that it's beneficial for something, and just like your thoughts on it, I'm not looking for approval here truly, but here's the idea. I was struck by the somewhat obvious thing that we can close our eyes, focus on our interoception, our skin, our breathing, we can meditate, bring our awareness into the quote unquote present.
这就是事情的全部。修剪的方式是基于你在世界上的体验。世界就是剪裁你花园的手，把某些路径加强，而让其他路径消失。作为一种可能在可塑性与时间感知之间架起桥梁的过程，我做了一个已经坚持了几年的练习，希望它对某些事情有益。我并不寻求认可，只是想听听你的看法。这个想法是这样的：我意识到一个显而易见的事情，我们可以闭上眼睛，专注于内在感受、皮肤、呼吸，我们可以冥想，把注意力集中在所谓的“此刻”。
The breathing seems like a good way to do that, or we can open our eyes and we can focus on something some distance away, or we can imagine the pale blue dot, and we're just this little thing running around on this pale blue dot. And when we move through those different realms of space, not just outer space, but from body to outside our body to outer space, there's a different time association with each of those. And I'd like your thoughts on that. And I just started devoting a little bit of time to stepping from one of these to another and just spending some time trying to think and exist in the different time domains in my head. And so I'll do that maybe for two, three minutes or four minutes or five minutes, and I told myself, and I still tell myself that it affords me some flexibility when something's happening in the moment, and you want to get perspective, it's about getting out of that time domain and realizing this isn't going to go on forever even though it feels like it.
呼吸似乎是一个很好的方法，或者我们可以睁开眼睛，专注于远处的某个东西，或者想象那颗苍蓝色的小点，而我们只是这颗苍蓝色小点上跑来跑去的小东西。当我们在这些不同的空间领域中移动时，不仅仅是外太空，还有从身体到身体之外再到外太空，每一个都有不同的时间关联。我希望听到你的想法。我刚开始花一点时间从一个领域过渡到另一个领域，并试着在脑海中用不同的时间领域去思考和存在。我可能会这样做两到五分钟，我告诉自己，也一直告诉自己，这让我在事情发生时更有灵活性。当你想要获得更广阔的视角时，就是要跳出那个时间领域，意识到虽然现在感觉好像很久，但它不会永远持续下去。
So I developed this as a bit of a practice for myself. Because I felt like it's just not a meditation, it's a perceptual exercise. So what I'm curious about is the relationship between time perception and where we place our attention, that's the first question. And then maybe what we can do with this, or could we evolve this perceptual exercise so that I and others, perhaps, if they want to, can start to access different space time representations, which sounds so fancy, but it's really just a way of getting outside yourself or getting within yourself. Sorry if I'm being choppy here, but this is something that feels very important. I love that, I think that's brilliant. One of the things that is so striking about time perception is that you don't have a single part of the brain that deals with that. You actually have different mechanisms that deal with thinking about long areas of time and seconds and sub seconds.
所以我开发了这个练习来作为自我实践的一部分。因为我觉得这不仅仅是冥想，而是一次感知练习。我很好奇的是时间感知与注意力集中之间的关系，这是我的第一个问题。然后也许我们可以用这个，或者我们能否进化这种感知练习，让我和其他人（如果他们愿意）能够开始接触不同的时空表现方式，听起来很高大上，但实际上只是让你跳出自我或深入自我的一种方式。抱歉我的表达有些跳跃，但我觉得这非常重要。我很喜欢这个，我认为这很聪明。关于时间感知，一个非常引人注目的方面是，大脑中并没有一个专门处理它的部位。事实上，有不同的机制来处理对长时间、秒和亚秒的思考。
Totally different mechanisms going on here. And we can demonstrate this in the laboratory. So time perception is something I've been studying since graduate school. And I'm happy to say I've got papers and science and nature and the top journals on this topic. Why? Because it's such a weird thing that's so understudied about why we perceive time the way we do. So let me say a few things about it. One is that it is these longer time scales what you're referring to thinking about being far away in space and time. This is a cognitive development. Children can't do this well, and they learn better and better. So for example, if you talk to a seventh grader and you talk about the Roman Empire and what was happening 2,200 years ago, it doesn't mean anything. It's like, okay, that's the past and whatever. But as you get older, if you become, let's say, a professional historian, you get better and better and understand that.
这里涉及到完全不同的机制，我们可以在实验室中演示这一点。时间感知是我从研究生时期就开始研究的课题。我很高兴地说，我在这一领域发表了很多文章，甚至在《科学》和《自然》等顶级期刊上都有论文。为什么呢？因为这个话题非常奇怪，而且我们对为什么我们会有这样的时间感知的研究非常不足。让我来谈几点。首先，这涉及到更长的时间尺度，你提到的对时间和空间的远距离思考。这是一种认知发展。孩子们在这方面做得不好，但他们会逐渐提高。例如，如果你和一个七年级的学生谈论罗马帝国和2200年前发生的事情，他们可能觉得无所谓，只是觉得那是过去的事。然而，随着年龄增长，如果你成长为一位专业历史学家，你会更好地理解这些事情。
Why? Because you've lived decades. And so now you can sort of think, you can sort of feel what a century might look like. And you can sort of, with practice, get better at these things. But the point is that is something we learn how to do, both in space and time. Obviously when you're an infant in the crib, space is just a really close thing. And eventually, it's your whole world. It's your whole world. Eventually you get outside and you look down long highways and Utah and you really start getting a better sense of this. I, to my knowledge, there's no data on what it would be to sort of throw yourself back and forth between these different space time scales. I love it though. One of the classes I teach at Stanford is called Brain and Literature. I've always been a lover of literature. And one of the things that I love is when authors do exactly this, where they zoom in on something really tight and they're really paying attention to it.
为什么？因为你已经经历了几十年。因此，你现在可以稍微思考，可以稍微感受到一个世纪可能是什么样子。通过练习，你可以在这些方面变得更好。但关键是，这是我们在空间和时间上学习如何做的事情。显然，当你还是婴儿在摇篮里时，空间只是一个非常近的东西。最终，它成为你的整个世界。最终你走出家门，俯瞰着长长的公路和犹他州的景色，你开始更好地理解这种感受。据我所知，还没有数据能说明在不同的时空尺度之间来回转换是什么感觉。但我对此非常喜欢。我在斯坦福大学教授的一门课叫做“大脑与文学”。我一直热爱文学，我钟爱的一点是，当作者专注于一个微小的细节时，他们会把焦点拉得很紧，仔细关注它。
And then they zoom way out. That is the most extraordinary sort of feeling. So anyway, I commend you on coming up with that version of space time meditation or whatever it is. That's very smart. Yeah, it was born out of this thing, the Victor Frankl thing, like between stimulus and response. But there's something about the autonomic nervous system. We weren't a heightened state of stress. We're not good at getting outside of the moment. You know, people like to attend breaths or whatever. It wasn't that I was having struggles with that. I just thought, it's so interesting. Like you watch a movie and it seems to be placed in a different time domain in each scene. Or then you go for a walk or a hike and I have this obsession with the idea that when we see horizons, we have a different time perception than when we can't see horizons.
然后，他们将视角拉得很远。这种感觉真的非常特别。总之，我要称赞你，能够提出这样一种时空冥想或者其他什么形式的方法，实在是太聪明了。这个想法源自于一个叫维克多·弗兰克尔的理论，比如在刺激与回应之间的空隙。但自动神经系统有某种影响。当我们处于高度压力状态时，我们并不擅长超越当下。比如说，很多人会选择专注于呼吸十次，可我并不是因为做不到这个而感到困惑，而是觉得，有一种有趣的现象。就像是，当你观看一部电影时，每个场景似乎位于不同的时间域。或者，当你去散步或远足时，我总是对这样一种观念感到着迷：当我们能看到地平线时，我们的时间感知与看不到地平线时是不同的。
And there's too many variables to do this right. You could do it in VR experiment. But because when they're close walls, you have claustrophobia, but there are ways to do this correctly. How you change your vision or visualization changes your time perception. So I don't know. I just look at it as a flexibility exercise and I'm a scientist in a weirdo. So I do these things. But you're the expert in time perception. So I want to ask, and I also want to ask about time perception. How good are people at perceiving time? And why am I always late? The why are you always late? That has to do with the Eulithis contract thing, which is just it requires a commitment to say, I'm going to be the kind of guy who's always on time. And the way to do that is to say, I'm going to commit to always being five minutes early. So you get to place early and just hang out in your car and you take care of some tax or whatever. That's the way to be always on time.
有太多变量使得事情很难做到完美。你可以在虚拟现实（VR）实验中尝试，但因为当墙壁很近时，你会感到幽闭恐惧。不过有正确的方法可以做到这一点。例如，你如何改变视野或可视化会影响你的时间感知。不过我不知道，我只是把这看作一种灵活性练习，而且我是一位有点怪异的科学家，所以我会做这些事情。不过，你才是时间感知方面的专家，所以我想问一下，我也想了解关于时间感知的问题。人们对时间的感知能力有多强？为什么我总是迟到？
你总是迟到的问题与“厄尔利契契约”（Eulithis contract）有关，这意味着你需要承诺成为一个总是准时的人。实现这一目标的方法是承诺总是提前五分钟到。这样你就可以提前到达目的地，在车里呆一会儿，处理一些事务之类的。这就是总是准时的方法。
Okay, but are people good at perceiving time? No, we're actually quite terrible at it. And some people are better than others. But one of the lessons that's emerged from my research on this stuff is that a lot of time is illusory. So you may know I did this experiment years ago. I was very interested in this question of does time run in slow motion when you're in fear for your life? Because when I was a child, I fell off of a roof of a house. I almost died. I landed on my, I landed a push-up position and busted my nose so badly that they had to remove all the cartilage and so on. And I've had a terrible sense of smell ever since because I busted the crib, crib form plate and everything. But the part that interested me even as a child was that the whole fall seemed to take so long. It felt like, oh my god, that was this really long thing. Obviously, I was totally calm during it. I was thinking about Alice in Wonderland as I was falling and how this must have been what it was like for her to fall down the rabbit hole.
好的，但人们擅长感知时间吗？其实并不擅长。实际上，我们在这方面相当糟糕。有些人比其他人要好一些。不过，我的研究给我带来的一课是，很多时候时间是有幻觉的。也许你知道，几年前我做过一个实验。我对这样一个问题非常感兴趣：当你因为恐惧生命受到威胁时，时间会以慢动作运行吗？因为我小时候从房顶掉下来，差点丧命。我以俯卧撑的姿势着地，鼻子伤得很严重，以至于不得不切除所有的软骨，从那以后我的嗅觉一直很差，因为撞坏了筛板等等。但即使在我还是孩子时，令我感兴趣的是整个下落的过程似乎花了很长时间。我感觉，天啊，这真的好长。当然，期间我完全冷静，我在下落时想着《爱丽丝梦游仙境》，想着她掉进兔子洞时可能也是这种感觉。
This is typical. I was eight years old. And this is typical when people are in life-threatening situations is that there's a sense of total calmness and bizarre thought. But also it seems to you've taken a long time. People report this all the time when they're in car accidents. They say, oh, I watched the hood crumple and the rear view mirror fall off. And I was looking at the face of the other guy and whatever. People experience this in gun fights, like police officers and so on. Everything seems to take a longer time. What happened is what I grew up and became a neuroscientist. I realized no one had ever studied that. And I got really curious about, is it the case that time seems to run in slow motion while you're experiencing it or is it a trick of memory somehow?
这是很典型的。我八岁的时候经历过这种情况。当人们处于生死攸关的时刻时，通常会感到完全的平静和产生一些奇怪的想法。而且，似乎这一切都发生得很慢。很多人在车祸中也有这样的经历，他们常常说，哦，我看到引擎盖皱了，后视镜掉了下来。我盯着另一个人的脸，等等。在枪战中，比如警察，也常会有这样的感受，一切似乎都变慢了。长大之后，我成为了一名神经科学家，意识到没有人研究过这个现象。我很好奇，究竟是人在经历这些时感觉时间变慢了，还是这是记忆方面的某种错觉呢？
So I ran to my knowledge. Or still the only experience that have ever been done on this. Do you know about this? So yes and no. Yes, I'm familiar with the paper. No, I've never heard it this way. So keep going. OK, great. So what I did is I rounded up 23 volunteer subjects. And I dropped them from 150 foot tall tower in free fall backwards. And they're caught by a net below going 70 miles an hour. I want to be in your experiment. Yeah, you would have loved this. It's a real, but it's terrifying. I did it myself three times first to make sure it was all running. And it's equally terrifying all three times, because you're falling backwards.
所以我尽我所知去做这件事。还是迄今为止唯一进行过的实验。你了解这个吗？所以答案是肯定的和否定的。是的，我很熟悉那篇论文。不，我从未听说过这样的方式。继续说吧。好的，太好了。我做的是召集了23位志愿者，然后让他们从一个150英尺高的塔上向后自由落体，并被下面的一个网接住，他们的速度为每小时70英里。我想参与你的实验。是啊，你会喜欢这个的。这是真实的，但很可怕。我自己先做了三次，以确保一切正常进行。每一次都同样可怕，因为你是向后掉下去的。
OK, what I did is I then built a device. My students, I built this device. It fits on people's wrist. And it flashes information at them. It's such a way that we could measure the speed at which they're taking in information. Essentially, we're taking advantage of what's called flickr diffusion frequency, where we're flashing lights really quickly. And you can see that at a certain rate of lights, you can see exactly what's going on. And just faster than that alternation rate, you can't see anything. OK. So we dropped people. We had them read the numbers on the wrist band. And we're finding out are people actually seeing in slow motion during a life-thranny situation. This is on 23 people. The results are very clear. People do not see any faster in a life-thranny situation.
好的，我做的事情是，我制作了一个装置。我的学生们，我制作了这个装置。它可以戴在人们的手腕上，并向他们闪烁信息。这样我们可以测量他们获取信息的速度。基本上，我们利用了一种叫做闪烁扩散频率的原理，我们快速地闪烁灯光。你可以看到，在一定的闪烁速度下，你能清楚地看到发生了什么。而在比这个交替速度稍快的时候，你就看不清了。好吧，我们让人们佩戴这个设备，然后读取手环上的数字。我们正在研究人们在危急情况下是否真的会以慢动作的方式感知事物。这项实验涉及23人，结果非常清楚，在危急情况下，人们感知信息的速度并不会加快。
And yet, when we ask people retrospectively with a stopwatch to judge how long their fall was versus watching someone else do the fall, their own fall felt much longer to them. OK, turns out this is all a trick of memory, which is to say, when you're in a life-thranny situation, you recruit not just your hippocampus for laying down memory, but a secondary memory track mediated by the amygdala. You've got this emergency control center, and you're writing out memories in this other secondary track. When you read that back out, you say, what just happened? What just happened? You've got all this density of memory that you don't normally have, because you've written down every detail. So your brain says, oh my gosh, this is what happened in the hood, crumpled, and so on.
当我们用秒表回忆评估自己的跌落时间长度，然后再与观看其他人跌落相比时，自己的跌落感觉要长得多。事实证明，这实际上是记忆的一个小花招。这就是说，在面临生死攸关的情境时，除了使用海马体来存储记忆外，还会通过杏仁核启动一个次要的记忆通道。你有一个应急控制中心，正在通过这个次要通道记录记忆。当你回想发生了什么时，你会感到惊讶，因为你记住了比平时更多的细节。于是大脑会觉得：“天哪，事情就是这样发生的，”包括车斗撞扁之类的细节。
But it's because all we're ever conscious of is our memory of an event, as in what happened during the event. So when you're in a life-thranny situation, you write more down, you think it took longer to transpire. And by the way, this issue about memory equals time explains a lot of things. For example, the issue of when you're a child and a summertime seems to take forever, and then by the time you're a age, a summertime seems to disappear. It's because as a child, you're figuring out the world, you're writing down lots and lots of memory during that summer. Oh, this is the first time I ever saw a waterfall, and when hiking here and did this thing, but by the time you're a age, you've sort of seen all the patterns before.
我们的意识往往只是对一个事件的记忆，即事件中发生的事情。因此，当你处于一个生死攸关的情况下时，你会记下更多的事情，就觉得这个过程花了更长的时间。另外，这种"记忆等于时间"的问题解释了许多现象。例如，当你还是个孩子时，一个暑假似乎很漫长，而等到你长大后，暑假好像转眼即逝。这是因为作为孩子，你在探索世界，在那个暑假中记录了大量新的记忆。比如，你第一次看到瀑布，去哪里徒步旅行和尝试新事物。但当你长大后，可能已经看过这些模式很多次了。
And so when we look back at a summer, we don't have much new footage to anchor on. So we say, oh, well, it was the winter. Now it's the fall. OK, fine, I guess that was really fast. May so. This is why time speeds up as we grow older. Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives. That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells. Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.
所以，当我们回顾一个夏天时，没有多少新的视频片段可以让我们记住。所以我们会说，哦，现在是冬天了，然后是秋天了。好吧，这真是过得很快。可能就是这样。这就是为什么随着年龄增长，我们会觉得时间流逝得更快。葡萄糖在我们身体的运作中起着关键作用，不仅在长期方面，更在我们生活的每一刻都如此。因为它是我们细胞的主要燃料，尤其是脑细胞。葡萄糖直接影响我们的脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的坚韧和意志力。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo. I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast. Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose. When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do too. In fact, large glucose peaks in valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger. What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose. Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not, but not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.
这就是为什么我使用 Lingo 的连续血糖监测仪。我真的很喜欢它，也很高兴能有他们赞助我的播客。Lingo 帮助我实时监测血糖，让我了解饮食和行动如何影响血糖。当你体内的血糖急剧升高或下降时，你的认知和身体表现也会受到影响。实际上，巨大的血糖波动会导致脑雾、疲劳、易怒和饥饿感。当然，你吃的食物对血糖有重要影响。有些食物会导致血糖急剧升高和下降，而其他食物则不会。此外，不同的人对特定食物的反应也不同。
Senior glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy. Lingo has helped me to better understand what foods to eat, when to eat, and how things like a brief walk after a meal can help keep my glucose stable and much more. If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four week Lingo plan. Terms in conditions apply. Visit hellolingo.com slash Huberman for more information. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older, not on insulin. It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. Individual responses may vary.
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I mean, I feel like these are what you're covering today is like the most interesting things about life and experience. I have a question about the fall experiment. Yeah. Is it accurate to say that your perceptual frame rate during a highly stressful experience is not different? Is no different. You're not taking a higher frame rate movie, which is more frame rate is how they generate slow motion, for instance, makes sense. That's why you're supposed to strobe frame rate. Just get right. But that in some sense, your unconscious frame rate is because the amygdala is tracking more information than you normally would have access to and say, a calm everyday experience.
我的意思是，我觉得你今天讨论的这些内容就像是关于生活和经历中最有趣的事情。我有一个关于坠落实验的问题。对吗？是否可以说，在经历高度压力的情况下，你的感知帧率其实并没有改变？你并没有以更高的帧率感知“电影”画面（更高的帧率可以用来制作慢动作效果）。这听起来有道理。这就是为什么要准确调校帧率。但在某种程度上，你的潜意识帧率因为杏仁核在追踪比你在平静日常体验中更多的信息，所以有所不同。
And so the memory is higher frame rate, but the experience is not. You know, it's really close. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't use the term frame rate in there. It's just that you have under normal circumstances, you write down almost nothing. You just, everything's passed through. You're not really remembering much. But in an emergency situation, your amygdala being the emergency control center says, everybody stop what you're doing. This is the most important thing going on. Everyone pay attention to this. So you're noticing every detail.
记忆的帧率是更高的，但体验并不是这样。你知道，这真的很接近。我不会在这里使用“帧率”这个词。通常情况下，你几乎什么都不记下来，只是让所有事情自然流过，你并没有真正记住很多东西。但在紧急情况下，大脑的杏仁核作为紧急控制中枢，会告诉你：停止你正在做的所有事情，这是最重要的事情，大家都要注意这个。因此，你会注意到每一个细节。
And you're not used to that. So just for anyone who knows what I'm referring to here as a Bayesian issue, your brain thinks, okay, a certain amount of memory must equal a certain amount of time. Now you've got just a lot more detail. And so it says, oh, well, that must have been, six seconds or something. What I did, by the way, I collected hundreds and hundreds of subjective reports from people who had been in accidents of various sorts. Yes, guy got a motorcycle accident and had come off the motorcycle and turned over and over and over on the road. And he said, as he was rolling over and over, he was like composing a little ditty in his head, like a little song to the sound of his helmet hitting the road and so on, because this is the kind of bizarre thought that people have. But it seemed to have taken a long time when he saw footage of it afterwards. The whole thing took whatever a second or two, but it seemed to him to have taken six seconds.
你对此不太习惯。所以，对于那些明白我在说贝叶斯问题的人来说，你的大脑会认为，记忆的多少应该与时间的长短相对应。现在你脑海中就有更多细节了，于是它就会误以为，那一定是过了六秒钟左右。顺便说一下，我收集了数百个曾经历过各种事故的人的主观报告。比如，有个人发生了摩托车事故，他从摩托车上摔下来，在路上翻滚。他说，当他不停翻滚时，他脑海中居然在编一小段歌曲，这段曲子是随着头盔撞击地面产生的声音编成的，因为人们在这种情况下会产生奇怪的想法。但当他事后看视频时，发现整个过程实际上只花了一两秒，但在他看来仿佛过了六秒钟。
But again, it's in retrospect when he's thinking what happened? What was the event like? By the way, I'll just mention, after I published this paper, sometimes people would come up to me after talk and say, I know that's not true because I was in a car accident. I know it took a long time and I said, okay, look, the person on the passenger seat next to you who was screaming, no, did it actually sound like they were saying, mm, because if time were running slow motion, that has to be the consequence, that everything is spread out. And they had to allow that it didn't sound like sounds were distorted and so on. So it is really about having more higher density memory. Super interesting.
但回过头来看，他在思考究竟发生了什么？事情当时到底是什么样的？顺便提一下，我发表这篇论文后，有时会有人在演讲结束后找我说，我知道那不是真的，因为我经历过车祸。我知道时间感觉过得很慢，我回答说，好吧，看，如果坐在你旁边的乘客当时尖叫着“不要”，那声音真的听起来像是“呣”吗？因为如果时间真的在慢动作中运行，那结果应该是所有东西都被延展开了。最终他们不得不承认，声音并没有被扭曲。所以，这实际上是关于拥有更高密度的记忆。非常有趣。
What about for non-stressful, non-life threatening circumstances? Like, let's pick a purely happy event. Yes, yes. One would hope, day of one's wedding. I was about to say birth of a child, but depending on who's doing the majority of the work and how stressful it was, I mean, of course, the birth of a healthy child is a super wonderful event, but it can be very stressful too under certain circumstances. So let's pick something purely happy, right? Terrific wedding, a great party, maybe a vacation with your spouse or family, where it just is like bliss day. Are you clocking more experiences?
对于非压力性、非威胁生命的情况呢？比如，我们选一个纯粹快乐的事件。是的，是的。希望是某人的婚礼当天。我本来想说孩子出生，但是这取决于谁做了大部分工作以及有多大压力。当然，一个健康孩子的出生是非常美好的事件，但在某些情况下也可能非常有压力。所以我们选个完全快乐的事情吧，比如梦幻婚礼、一场精彩的派对，或者与配偶或家人的度假，它就像是幸福满满的一天。你是在体验更多的快乐吗？
So any time you're doing something novel, and it's actually ties back to the conversation we had before about seeking novelty, whenever you're doing something novel, you're writing down more memory. And that's the whole key. So for example, if you spent your last weekend going off and doing something wacky, you'd never done before, parasailing and over sharks or whatever the thing is, you'd come back and you'd think, wow, it seems like it was so long since Friday, now it's Monday and it's been forever since I was back in the studio. But if you have a normal weekend, we're not doing much of anything, but surfing Instagram or something, then you come back and you think, God, it was just Friday. The difference is just how much memory you clocked and therefore what you can draw on in terms of footage.
每当你做一些新奇的事情，也就是我们之前谈到的追求新奇感的时候，你其实是在记录更多的记忆。这就是关键所在。比如说，如果你上个周末去做了一些你从未尝试过的疯狂事情，比如在鲨鱼上面滑翔伞，当你回来时，你会觉得哇，好像周五已经是很久以前的事情了，现在是星期一，就像回到工作室已经过了很长时间。但如果你有一个普通的周末，只是刷刷Instagram或者没做什么特别的事情，那么回过头来你会觉得，好像刚刚还是周五。区别就在于你记录了多少记忆，因此可以利用多少经历。
I actually think this happens with drugs where people, you know, people sometimes have the experience on marijuana where they think, wow, I've been standing here forever. And it's because they're having a hard time anchoring down on footage about like, when did I arrive to the kitchen? When what happened since I've been here? And so they just, they don't know. But anyway, the point is, sometimes people have this idea about time speeding up as you get older, they say, well, you know, to an eight year old, summer is this big fraction of their life, but to a 50 year old, it's a smaller fraction. But I don't think that's it at all. It's that it's what you did this past weekend can make the weekend seem longer.
我认为这种现象会出现在使用某些药物的时候。比如，有时候人们在使用大麻时会感觉，好像自己已经在这个地方站了很久。这是因为他们很难记住具体的事情，比如，我是什么时候到厨房的？在这之后发生了什么？所以他们其实并不清楚。但无论如何，重点是，有些人认为随着年龄增长，时间会变得越来越快。他们说，对于一个八岁的孩子来说，夏天占据了他们生命中的很大一部分，而对于一个五十岁的人来说，只占据了较小的一部分。但我并不认为这是原因。实际上，是什么事情填满了你刚刚过去的这个周末，会让你感觉这个周末变长了。
When it comes to some great new event like the birth of a child or a wedding or whatever it is, it has to do with how much attention you're paying and how much memory you're writing down. And that means it is to some degree in our control. If we really attend to things and write down memories instead of letting life just wash over us, we can seem as though we've lived longer. I'm not talking about longevity. I'm just talking about the seeming as though you've lived longer, which is look, here's, here's something that I try to do all the time. It's just switch stuff up. For example, brushing your teeth with your other hand, not hard to do, but it's just one of a million ways of knocking yourself off a path.
当涉及到一些伟大的新事件时，比如孩子的出生、婚礼，或其他任何事情，这与您投入了多少注意力以及记下了多少记忆有关。而这意味着在某种程度上，我们是可以控制的。如果我们真正关注事情，并记录下记忆，而不是让生活一晃而过，我们就会觉得自己好像活得更久。我说的不是寿命，而是那种好像活得更久的感觉。看，这就是我一直试图做到的。比如，改变一些小习惯，用另一只手刷牙，很简单，但这只是无数种让自己脱离惯性轨道的小方法之一。
One thing I try to do every time I drive home from Stanford is I try to take a different drive home, a different route home, you know, waste an extra minute, whatever. But it's, I'm seeing new things, I'm observing new things about the neighborhood or whatever that I hadn't noticed before. One thing that's very easy to do is just rearrange your office, like push your desk over here, take two paintings and just swap them on the wall. All this stuff is super easy, but it really matters. It's important because what it's doing is enhancing brain plasticity. In the sense of just challenging, you know, your internal model says, okay, I've got this world. And then suddenly says, oh, there's something new, there's some interesting going on in this world. And it makes it seem as though you've lived longer because you're writing down more memories about everything.
每次从斯坦福开车回家时，我都会尝试走不同的路线，哪怕多花一分钟也无所谓。因为这样我可以看到新的事物，观察到以前没有注意到的小区细节。有一件非常简单可以做的事就是重新布置一下你的办公室，比如把书桌挪到另一个位置，把墙上的两幅画换个地方挂。这些事情都很容易做到，但它们重要的原因是可以增强大脑的可塑性。这样可以挑战你的内在模型，让你意识到，哦，这个世界里还有新鲜有趣的东西在发生。这种感觉就像是让你的人生变长了，因为你记录了更多的记忆。
Gosh, this time perception thing, I spend way too much time thinking about it. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around how much time we should spend trying to be present. So I have a, and this is not an official definition, but my kind of understanding of the dopamine system and addiction as I say, and people have heard me say before, you know, addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure. It also involves continuing to use or behavior despite negative consequences. But I mentioned the other definition of addiction, progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure because I was trying to come up with some, at least accurate, but not exhaustive definition of like enlightenment when people talk about enlightenment, right, all these monks who are so, get so present through all this meditation or people who go to big sir and they get, you know, they're so present, present, enlightenment, I think of in one definition might be, okay, I'm not the authority on this, but might be a progressive expansion of the things that bring you pleasure.
天哪，这个关于时间感知的问题，我花了太多时间去思考它。我仍然在努力理解我们应该花多少时间去活在当下。我有一个不算官方的定义，但这是我对多巴胺系统和成瘾的理解。正如我以前说过的，很多人也听我这样说过，成瘾是一种让你快乐的事情逐渐变少的过程。它还包括即使有负面后果，仍然继续使用某种物质或行为。但我提到成瘾的另一个定义：让你快乐的事情逐渐变少，因为我在尝试为人们讨论的开悟提供一个至少准确但不全面的定义。当我们谈到那些通过冥想变得非常专注的僧侣，或者去到大瑟尔（Big Sur）然后变得非常专注的人们的时候，开悟，我认为可以定义为让你感到快乐的事情逐渐扩展。虽然我不是这方面的权威，但这可能是对开悟的一种理解。
But to really get pleasure out of a sip of water, I'm not terribly thirsty right now, if I take a sip of water, it doesn't taste anything like if I were very thirsty, but we need to pay attention. We need to be in the, what is paying attention? It's being most of the time in the present, right? Paying attention to these things. But if we spend all our time in the present, we eliminate Eulice's contract. So the extremes can't be good, but I think examining the extremes, like the free fall experiment, they're useful windows into time perception and how we measure life. It could be that by establishing Eulice's contracts and many aspects of our lives, we get more of an opportunity to be in the present. Cause we know, look, I don't have to worry about my future self, I'm not gonna eat that cookie, I am gonna go to the gym, whatever, cause I've already set up these contracts, I don't have any cookies in my house, I'm meeting my buddy at the gym, whatever. Then you have more opportunity to be in the present.
要真正从一口水中获得乐趣，当我不太渴的时候，喝一口水的感觉与特别口渴时截然不同。当我们关注这些时刻时，需要专注于当下，对吧？可如果我们一直生活在当下，就会失去"尤利西斯合约"的意义。因此，极端情况不是理想之选，但研究这些极端，比如自由落体实验，可以帮助我们理解时间感知和生活衡量。制定“尤利西斯合约”可以让我们更容易活在当下。因为我们已经为未来做好了规划，比如不吃饼干、去健身房等计划都已落实，比如家里根本就没有饼干，健身房里还有朋友等着自己。这样一来，就有更多的机会享受当下的时光。
You don't have to simulate all kinds of futures. Yeah, I think paying attention to things matters a lot, but we have to be smart about what we pay attention to. I mean, it might be lovely to really love the water and so on, but not your Instagram feed or something. So it's just a matter of thinking clearly about what you want to pay attention to and devote your memories to. And this translates into what you set up. Like I'm gonna set up a dinner at my house, I'm gonna invite my close friends and I'm gonna have the dinner and pay a hundred percent attention to dinner. I'm gonna be present at this thing cause that's the stuff of life. Where I'm getting to with this is that there's beauty and there's tragedy at every spatial scale and every temporal scale.
你不需要去模拟各种各样的未来。我认为关注事物确实很重要，但我们必须聪明地选择要关注什么。比如，你可能很喜欢自然、喜欢水，而不是花大量时间在Instagram上。所以关键是清楚地思考你想关注什么，并把你的记忆投入到这些方面。这样的决定会影响到你如何安排生活，比如，我打算在家里举办一次晚宴，邀请我亲密的朋友们，并全神贯注于这次晚宴。我要全身心地投入到当下的活动中，因为这些就是生活的本质。我想表达的是，无论空间还是时间的尺度，每一个层面都有其美丽和悲剧。
Right, unfortunately in my neighborhood, this issue has not been resolved in many places. We have homelessness and drug addicted and mental illness population and those intersect in very complicated ways. That is so extreme and you can see people who are paying immense amount of attention to what anyone else would consider trivial. Like the bits of dirt on the sidewalk and it's so tragic. We can see that that's not a good use of one's time attention and focus. But there's also beauty at all sorts of scales. I think one of the obsessions that people have with like fractals and these organization at very small scales all the way up to very large scales is it brings us to this relationship with life. There's all this stuff we can't see and it's beauty at every scale, tragedy at every scale. I don't even have to mention a tragedy at massive scale because they're all over the world and they have been throughout human history, frankly.
在我居住的社区里，很不幸的是，这个问题在很多地方都没有得到解决。我们面临着无家可归、吸毒成瘾以及精神健康问题的人群，而且这些问题之间有着复杂的交织。这些情况非常极端，你会看到一些人对别人看来微不足道的事情格外关注，比如人行道上的点点灰尘，这真是令人心痛。这样的注意力分配并不是一个好选择。但在各种层面上，也有美的存在。我觉得人们对像分形那样的小到大尺度的组织形式着迷，是因为它让我们与生命建立了一种联系。有很多东西，我们看不见，但在每个尺度上都有它的美丽和悲剧。我甚至不需要提到大规模的悲剧，因为这些悲剧在世界各地普遍存在，并且自古以来一直伴随人类历史。
By the way, I was just in Las Vegas at CES giving a talk yesterday. And as I was leaving, I looked out the window and there was this Chinese lion statue and there was this homeless woman smoking a cigarette and she was rubbing this thing very vigorously and the guy driving the car told me, oh, that's good luck if you rub the statue. Which is of course ridiculous. But the woman was rubbing and rubbing and rubbing and rubbing and we're in red light and I watched her for like 60 seconds doing this. And yeah, it was tragic to me because her brain has set up an association which is if I do this action, there will be this result. That's what her future simulation is telling her. And as far as we can tell, that's not true, that she'll have good luck from doing that. But yeah, that was an example of tragedy.
顺便说一下，我前几天刚在拉斯维加斯参加CES大会并做了一个演讲。在我要离开的时候，我透过窗户往外看，看到一个中国狮子雕像旁边有一个无家可归的女人在抽烟，她正非常用力地摩擦那个狮子雕像。开车的司机告诉我，摩擦那个雕像是可以带来好运的。当然，这很荒唐。但那个女人不停地摩擦，一次又一次。当时正好是红灯，我看了她大约60秒钟。对我来说这是很悲哀的，因为她的大脑已经形成了一种关联，她认为如果做这个动作，就会有某种结果。她的“未来模拟”告诉她这样做会有好运。但我们可以确定的是，这种行为不会带给她好运。这就是一个悲剧的例子。
Yeah, it's almost like the worst thing for any human suffering from mental illness or not is to perseverate on one spatial or time scale to like get in the tunnel of the thing that's right in front of you or to be lost out, you know, you we see people and we even know some people who are arguably a little bit strange and they don't not maybe perhaps to the extent of full pathology but they kind of they're heading the clouds all the time. You can't really function in life. They need handlers, right? I know some creative people like this. The only reason why they are not like the first person I described is because they have handlers to handle all the stuff that's at closer spatial scale. Get organized, get, you know, and but actually a good example.
是的，无论是否患有精神疾病，对任何人来说，最糟糕的事情之一就是过于专注在单一的空间或时间尺度上，比如说过于关注眼前的事情，或者迷失在自己的世界中。我们也看到过这样的人，甚至可能认识一些看起来有点奇怪的人，他们可能没有完全到达病态的程度，但他们总是似乎飘在云端，无法正常生活。他们需要他人帮助才能处理各种事务。我认识一些有创造力的人，他们之所以没有像我描述的第一种人那样，是因为他们有助手来帮他们处理更近距离的事务，帮助他们组织和安排事情。这其实是一个很好的例子。
I'll just give a concrete example because he was so awesome. I didn't know him personally, but Shane McGow and the singer for the Pogues who had severe, this is not a secret, had severe issues with alcohol. I was teeth that rotted out later than life they gave him. But I was once going to see the Pogues in San Francisco. Love the Pogues and that day I got to the city early and brought my work up there. I see this guy walking along Geary. I didn't know who was at the time. He's got like this really nice, like it looked like almost like a silk shirt and the tag is still on it and he's just shuffling out into traffic and I'm like, oh my god, this guy's getting it killed. So I get out, he's shaming out.
我来举一个具体的例子，因为他真的很棒。我不认识他本人，但是Shane McGowan，Pogues乐队的歌手，有非常严重的酒精问题，这并不是秘密。因为酒精问题，他的牙齿后来都坏掉了。但有一次我去旧金山看Pogues的演出。我非常喜欢Pogues，那天我很早就到了城市里，把工作也带了过去。在Geary街上，我看到一个人在走路。当时不知道他是谁，他穿着一件看起来像丝绸做的漂亮衬衫，标签还挂着，他就这样步履蹒跚地走在车流中。我心想，天哪，这个人会被撞的。所以我赶紧过去，叫他的名字。
And then his team comes running over like, oh, we gotta get him back at, he was so blasted. He didn't even know where he was. And apparently that's how he was much of his life. That evening, he got on stage, barely made it to the microphone and gave a legendary, one of many legendary Pogues shows, right? I mean, just, I mean, for those that don't know the Pogues, you should look it up and if you do, I mean, they, there are tons of movies and they love you to the end, and it's a song that's in every romantic comedy. That's them and you know, it's just, so there are people like that. And oftentimes, ultra creatives, they're a drift, but you can, it seems to, I'm not suggesting the alcohol, but they, but to be able to kind of pull all that into the moment seems to be their super skill.
然后，他的团队赶紧跑过来说：“哦，我们得把他带回去。” 他当时喝得烂醉，甚至不知道自己身在何处。据说他的一生大部分时间都是这样的。那天晚上，他勉强走上舞台，几乎没能走到麦克风前，但还是带来了一场传奇演出，众多传说中的Pogues演出之一。对那些不认识Pogues的人来说，你应该查一查。如果你认识他们，你就会知道他们拍过很多电影，还有那首在每部浪漫喜剧中都会播放的《Love You Till the End》，那就是他们。所以，这个世界上有这样的人。许多时候，极具创造力的人似乎都漂泊不定，但他们能够在关键时刻把一切汇聚在一起，这似乎就是他们的超能力。
Most people it seems and I wonder if you think a definition of mental health is the ability to switch from these different time domains. Because you also don't wanna be in a watchmaker mode all the time, that watchmaker needs to pay attention to his or her kids. Well, I tell you, Albert Einstein said that he really enjoyed tasks like fixing a doorknob in his house or something. And I knew that all the time, but he lots of, I live in this very old house, and I'm doing lots of little dinky repairs all the time and I love that just crossing these scales.
大多数人似乎认为，心理健康的一个定义是能够在不同的时间领域之间切换。因为你也不希望一直处于制表匠模式，制表匠需要关注他的孩子们。我告诉你，阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦曾说他很享受做一些琐事，比如修理家里的门把手。我一直都知道这一点，因为我住在一栋非常古老的房子里，总是在做各种小修小补，而我很喜欢这种跨越不同尺度的感觉。
But I do want to say something about addiction because I think this is an awesome example about brain plasticity and something that I wrote about in my book, LiveWire, about this, which is, addiction is all about brain plasticity. You put a certain drug in your system. And what your brain does is it upregulates the receptors for that drug, which is its way of saying, oh, I didn't know the world consisted of this stuff good. I'm gonna prepare for this now and I expect more of it.
我想谈谈成瘾的问题，因为我认为这是一个很好的例子，能说明大脑的可塑性，这也是我在我的书《LiveWire》中讨论过的内容。成瘾完全与大脑的可塑性有关。当你在体内摄入某种药物时，你的大脑会增加对这种药物的受体数量，这是大脑在说：“哦，我不知道世界上还有这种东西，这很好。我现在要为此做好准备，并期待更多。”
So then you give it more and this is great. I'm gonna upregulate the receptors again. And it comes to expect that this is in the world, and then if you stop, you have these awful drug withdrawal symptoms precisely because you've changed your system, now it's expecting the world to have that. So I draw an analogy between that and heartbreak because when somebody that you love, let's say dies or leaves town or whatever the thing is, your brain has come to expect the presence of that person in your world has thought, okay, the world consists of this and now that person has gone, and heartbreak is a really painful physiological thing that you have to go through as your brain to readjusts to the world without that person.
然后你就给予更多，这很好。我会再次上调受体，这样大脑就期望世界中存在这种情况。然而，如果你突然停止，你会经历严重的药物戒断症状，因为你已经改变了你的系统，现在它期望世界中存在这种情况。我把这个与心碎作类比，因为当你爱的人，比如说去世或离开，你的大脑已经习惯了那个人在你世界中的存在，认为世界中应当有这个人。现在那个人离开了，而心碎就是一个非常痛苦的生理过程，你必须经历它，以使大脑重新适应没有那个人的世界。
Something that I would hope no one would have to experience, but everyone loses people at some point or a pet or both. Do you think that constant engagement in, let's just say like TikTok type social media where that upregulates the quote unquote receptors of expectation for it that make it harder for people to stop using it? Because the drug and addiction definition you gave, which I love, dopamine receptors for methamphetamine or for cocaine and so on, but for an experience, for gambling, for social media, the receptors become more like circuit activations or like the circuits of the brain anticipate it and if they don't get it, do you think that there's a kind of a withdrawal like effect? I don't know how I feel about this.
这是一种我希望没有人需要经历的事情，但每个人在某个时候都会失去亲人或宠物。你认为不断地沉迷于社交媒体，比如说像抖音这样的平台，会不会让人们对这种期待的“感受器”变得更加活跃，从而更难停止使用？你提到的关于药物和成瘾的定义我很喜欢，比如说甲基苯丙胺或可卡因的多巴胺感受器，但是对于体验、赌博、社交媒体来说，这些感受器更像是电路的激活或者说大脑的电路在期待它。如果他们得不到这种刺激，你觉得是否会有一种类似戒断的效应？对此我不太确定自己的感受。
I wonder when we were growing up, people said, no, it's the television, it's the television's rooting everyone's attention span and so on. Your brain, I remember. Your brain. My mom would kick us out. This is very common. She'd say you gotta go outside. She would lock us out of the house. We'd run her out of that can she'd don't come back until dark. Yes, exactly. We did not have the option to watch cartoons. There was for more than a couple minutes after school. We were forbidden. So she could get peace and we could get acting. Exactly.
我想知道，当我们长大的时候，人们常说，是因为电视毁了大家的注意力等等。我记得脑子的问题。我妈妈会把我们赶出家门，这是很常见的情况。她会说：“你们要出去。” 然后把门锁上，不让我们回家。她说不等到天黑不许回来。是的，完全正确。我们放学后看动画片的时间并不长，被限制得很严格。这样妈妈可以享受清静，而我们则可以多运动。就是这样。
And the other people might not know, the tell that it was called the boob tube where the boob was like an idiot and that was the, that's where the term YouTube, was a funny derivation of that. But the, right. So now what kids are watching is lots of content. We were all watching lots of content on Instagram, TikTok. Much of which is great. It's well produced. It's matched to our interests. And so I don't, are we addicted? Yes. Is it an addiction because it's offering better content than many other things in our life? In some sense, yes. So I'm a little torn on it.
其他人可能不知道，“boob tube”这个称呼中，“boob”指的是一个傻瓜，这就是“boob tube”这个词的由来，而“Youtube”这个名字是对它的一个幽默衍生。但是现在孩子们观看的是大量的内容。我们所有人都在Instagram和TikTok上看大量的内容。其中很多内容非常优秀，制作精良，并且与我们的兴趣相匹配。所以我觉得，我们上瘾了吗？是的。是否因为它提供了比我们生活中许多其他事物更好的内容而导致上瘾呢？从某种意义上说，是的。所以我对此有些矛盾。
The other thing that we've all noticed though is that people don't seem to be happy when they spend time scrolling on it. They're kind of tempted to do it. But when they finish, they never feel like, wow, that was really a great experience. They're kind of drained from it. So in that sense, it has the characteristics of an addiction where you keep going back to it even though you're not getting the high from it that you did the first time. I will say, as long as I use it properly, I love social media and YouTube. I'm not just saying there's a political statement that goes, teach on YouTube, I learn from you, I learn from others.
大家注意到的另一件事是，人们在不停地刷屏时并不快乐。他们似乎很想这样做，但结束后并没有感到这是一次很棒的体验，反而觉得有点疲惫。从这方面来看，这种行为有点像上瘾，即使并没有第一次使用时的那种兴奋感觉，他们还是会不断回去。我想说的是，只要我正确使用，还是很喜欢社交媒体和YouTube的。我不是在发表政治声明，而是通过在YouTube上学习，向你和其他人学习。
Like the other day, I wanted to learn about architecture. So I like during my workout, I put on a YouTube thing and just listen to it, like a basic history of certain architects in the United States. I was like, I learned so much. We couldn't do that. Oh, my kids. It's awesome. It's just awesome. And then that set off in the algorithm some really good suggestions or some other things. And then when I didn't watch those, it offered some others and I'm like down the rabbit hole of stuff that I never, ever, ever would have encountered. It's really cool.
就像前几天一样，我想了解建筑知识。所以在我锻炼的时候，我就打开YouTube，听一个关于美国一些建筑师的基础历史介绍。我感觉学到了很多。我们以前不能这么做。哦，我的孩子们，这真是太棒了。结果这也让算法推荐了一些真的很不错的内容。然后当我没有看那些的时候，它又给我推荐了其他内容，我就这样不断深入到了我过去从未接触过的领域。这真的很酷。
This is precisely why all these kids have the opportunity, I think, to be so much smarter than we were. Yeah, I'm just super enthusiastic about it. And now with AI, it can be even a whole different level. I mentioned this thing before about using AI to debate, but just even in general, just saying, hey, I'm curious about this. How does this, how does a flying buttress work or something? Hey, chat GPT, hey, Claud, blah, blah. And you get the answer, wow, what a great, what a great opportunity for kids growing up. Are you using YouTube to try and help? You've fixed up these things in your house.
正因为如此，我认为现在这些孩子有机会变得比我们更聪明。我对此非常热衷。现在有了人工智能，这种机会可以达到一个全新的水平。我之前提到过用人工智能来辩论这件事，不过总体来说，只要你有好奇心，无论是关于飞扶壁的工作原理或者任何东西，你都可以对聊天工具如ChatGPT或Claude进行提问，然后你马上就能得到答案。这对正在成长的孩子来说是一个多么好的机会啊！你有没有用YouTube来帮助自己修理家里的东西呢？
Oh, sure. Yeah, everything I fix. I learned how to do it on YouTube first. Yeah, very cool. Now I'm using AI to do it. I've got this lighting thing and I couldn't figure out. So I took pictures and I said, what am I looking at here? Where's the box and the transformer, whatever? And it was pretty good at telling me what to do next. That's awesome. You have a company. This is not a promotional anytime I mentioned. Can I pause?
哦，当然。我修的所有东西都是先在YouTube上学的，真的很酷。现在我用人工智能来解决问题。我遇到一个照明装置的问题，不知道怎么弄。于是我拍了些照片，然后问这个是什么？盒子在哪里，变压器在哪里？它给出的建议还挺不错的。这真是太棒了。你有一家公司。不过我提到这一点不是为了打广告。我可以暂停一下吗？
Yeah. Neo Sensory, I actually sold six months ago. So I don't have it anymore just for you. All right. So I had a company. Congratulations. Thank you. But Neo Sensory who is a really neat idea of combining different senses, people wearing bracelets so they could feel sounds and so forth. Can anyone do this, even if they're not deficient in vision or in hearing or in some other modality?
好的。Neo Sensory是一家公司，我在六个月前就把它卖掉了。所以现在我不再拥有它，不过可以告诉你一些信息。这个公司有一个非常有趣的理念，就是结合不同的感官功能。人们可以戴上手环，通过触感来“感受”声音。即使没有视力、听力或其他感官方面的缺陷，任何人都可以使用这个设备吗？
Yeah. So I got, I just got really interested in this topic about pushing information into the brain via unusual sensory channels. So for example, as you referenced, you know, I built a wristband that captures sound and turns sound into patterns of vibration on the skin. This is for people who are deaf and deaf people could learn how to hear that way. Why? Because this is the same thing that your inner ear, your cochlea does, it's just capturing vibrations on the eardrum and trans-braking that up and then from frequencies, shipping that off to the brain in terms of spikes, just these, you know, voltage spikes, so long nerves. We're doing the same thing. So if we're pushing it in through the skin, it goes up to spinal cord to a different part of the brain, but the brain can figure that out. How? Because it's doing correlations.
好的。我对通过非传统感官渠道将信息输入大脑产生了浓厚的兴趣。比如，就像你提到的，我制作了一种手环，它可以捕捉声音，将声音转化为皮肤上的振动模式。这是为失聪的人设计的，失聪人士可以通过这种方式学会"听"。为什么这么说呢？因为这与内耳的耳蜗所做的事情是一样的，它只是捕捉鼓膜上的振动，将其分解为不同的频率，再以神经脉冲的形式传递到大脑。我们做的也是类似的事情。如果我们通过皮肤输入信息，它会沿着脊髓传递到大脑的不同区域，但大脑能够理解这些信息。这是怎么做到的呢？因为大脑会进行关联分析。
It sees somebody's mouth move, it's feeling the sound and it figures out how to hear that way. Now, this idea of sensory substitution, I wish I had invented that, but it actually has a long history and more research I found out it goes back to the 1800s. When people first started asking, hey, can you push information into the brain in a weird way? So the very first one was in the 1880s, they had a little camera lens that would just detect light and dark and it would get translated into a buzzing on your forehead and for people who were blind, they could tell, you know, okay, well, there's a wall over here and then there's an opening over here and so on.
它可以看到某人的嘴巴在动，感受到声音，并通过这种方式学会了听。这个叫做感觉替代的概念，我希望是我发明的，但实际上它有很长的历史，经过更多研究我发现这可以追溯到19世纪。当时人们首次开始探讨，能否用一种奇特的方式将信息传递到大脑中。最早的案例是在1880年代，他们有一个小摄像头镜头，可以检测光和暗，并将其转化为前额上的震动。对于盲人来说，他们能够判断，“嗯，这里有一堵墙，而那里有个开口”等等。
And then people worked on this. The first major paper was in 1969 in nature. I got an Impalbocky Rita, took blind people and he put them in a dental chair and he had this thing that would poke them in the back, a grid of 40 by 40, little solenoids that would poke in the back. And he set up a video camera, whatever the camera saw, you would feel that in your back. So if it's looking at a triangle, you feel that triangle poked in your back. If it's looking at a face, you feel the face, so blind people got pretty good at doing this, especially once he let them control the camera so they could move the camera anyway they wanted. People got really good at being able to tell what was going on. Is this following them around as they move through the world?
然后人们开始研究这个问题。第一篇重要的论文是在1969年发表在《自然》杂志上的。我找到了一个叫因帕尔博基·里塔的人，他邀请一些盲人参与实验。他让盲人坐在牙医的椅子上，背后有一个装置，是由40×40的小型电磁铁组成的网格，会在盲人的背上捅出不同的形状。他还设置了一个摄像头，摄像头看到的图像会通过这种网格显示出来。比如，如果摄像头看到的是一个三角形，盲人就会感受到背部被捅出一个三角形。如果摄像头看到的是一张脸，盲人就会感受到背部被捅出一个脸的形状。随着时间的推移，盲人逐渐掌握了这种技术，特别是当他们可以自由控制摄像头的移动时，他们能够很熟练地判断摄像头所看到的东西。这种技术可以让他们在移动中感知周围的环境。
So they were sitting in this dental chair. And that's exactly it. In 1969, the technology was really clunky and heavy and got hot and whatever and there was no way to make it portable in a meaningful way. But as time has gone on, we've been able to do that now. And so Paul Bocky Rita's research, he passed away some years ago, but his research has continued with something called the Brain Port, which is again, for blind people. So with the Brain Port, the way this works is you're wearing this little camera on your head on glasses and you've got this little electrical grid on your tongue.
所以，他们当时坐在牙科的椅子上。就是这样子的情况。1969年，那时候的技术非常笨重、沉重，而且会发热，根本无法便携。但是随着时间的推移，我们现在已经能够做到这一点。保罗·博基·里塔的研究仍在继续，尽管他已经去世多年。他的研究引入了一种名为Brain Port的设备，专门为盲人设计。这种设备的工作原理是，在你的头上或眼镜上安装一个小型摄像头，并在你的舌头上放置一个小型电极网格。
That's whatever the camera is seeing. You feel that on your tongue, it feels like pop rocks. So if I'm looking at the coffee cup in front of me, I'm feeling the outline of the coffee cup. And blind people can get so good at this, they can do things like throw a ball into a basket or navigate a complex obstacle course. Whoa. It sounds crazy, but the thing to remember is, the way you normally see is your eyeballs are these devices embedded in your skull here that are capturing photons and turning that into spikes that race into the darkness of your brain.
这就是摄像头看到的东西，你会用舌头感受到，就像吃跳跳糖的感觉一样。所以，如果我盯着面前的咖啡杯看，我就能感受到咖啡杯的轮廓。而盲人通过这种方式可以练得非常好，他们甚至能做到像是把球投进篮筐或者穿越复杂的障碍物。这听起来很疯狂，但要记住，我们平常用眼睛看东西，其实是眼球这种装置嵌在你的头骨里，它们捕捉光子，然后把信息转换成信号，传递到大脑中。
Electrical signals. Electrical signals, exactly. And so this is just turning what your tongue is feeling into spikes, these electrical signals that race into the darkness of your brain. And you can figure it out, you can learn how to see that way. And again, it's with correlation because you feel something with your fingers, maybe you hear something also. And so you're putting that together and your brain says, oh, okay, I got it, there's a visual thing out there in the world.
电信号。没错，正是电信号。这就是将你舌头上感受到的东西转变为尖峰状的电信号，这些信号迅速传入你大脑的黑暗区域。你可以理解这一点，并可以学会以这种方式“看见”。这同样依赖于相关性，因为你用手指感受到了一些东西，也许你还听到了一些声音。于是，你把这些信息结合起来，你的大脑就会说，哦，明白了，外部世界有这样一个视觉上的东西。
And the really wacky part, I'll just mention, is that people using the brain port who let's say used to have sight and lost it, they will report it is like sight. They say I remember seeing, and this is like seeing, even though it's coming through their tongue. And with the neo-censory wristband that we built, you know, I interviewed a guy after he even was wearing about six months. And I said, look, when you hear a dog bark, do you feel the buzzing on your wrist? And then you think, okay, that must be a dog bark. He said, no, no, I hear the dog bark out there, which sounds crazy, but obviously that's the same crazy thing that's happening with our ears.
特别有趣的一点，我想提一下，就是使用“脑孔”设备的人，如果他们曾经能看见东西但后来失明了，他们会说这就像在看东西一样。他们说，我记得看东西的感觉，而这就像在看，尽管信号是通过舌头传递的。此外，我们开发了一款“新感觉”手环。我采访了一位使用这个手环大约六个月的人。我问他，当你听到狗叫声时，你是不是感觉到手腕上的震动，然后想，这一定是狗在叫。他回答说，不，我是在外面听到狗叫声的。这听起来很疯狂，但实际上，这是和我们用耳朵听到声音的原理是一样的。
You know, we've got this whole mechanism going on that we're very used to. And so we say, oh, of course the dog is out there, but in fact, it's all happening in here in the darkness of the skull. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, function. Last year, I became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.
你知道，我们习惯了这个整个运作机制。我们总是说，哦，当然狗在外面，但实际上这一切都发生在我们头骨的黑暗中。在这里，我想稍作休息，并感谢我们的赞助商之一，Function。去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了Function的会员。Function提供超过100项高级实验室测试，让你对整个身体健康状况有一个重要的概览。这个概览可以让你了解心脏健康、荷尔蒙健康、免疫功能、营养水平等等。他们最近还增加了检测有害塑料中BPA暴露的毒素测试，以及对PFAS或所谓“永久化学品”的测试。
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该功能不仅可以检测超过100种生物标志物，还涵盖关键的身体和心理健康，它还会分析这些结果，并提供相关领域顶尖医生的见解。例如，在我第一次使用此功能进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量偏高。功能不仅帮助我检测到了这一点，还提供了降低汞含量的最佳建议，包括限制我食用金枪鱼的数量，因为我之前吃了很多金枪鱼，同时也努力多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC（乙酰半胱氨酸），这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的生成和解毒过程。
And I should say, by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to huberman podcast listeners.
我想说，当我做第二次功能检测时，这个方法确实奏效了。全面的血液检测非常重要，因为很多与心理和身体健康相关的问题只能通过血液检测发现。问题是，血液检测一直以来都很昂贵且复杂。相对而言，我对Function的简便性和低成本印象深刻，非常实惠。因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，并且很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。目前Function的等待名单超过25万人，但他们为Huberman播客的听众提供了提前访问的机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com slash huberman to get early access to function. Recently, I've been listening to a book that I read previously, which I love. By the way, I love live wire. Thank you. I'm not just saying I've read it like three times. Oh, thank you. When it came out, I need to revisit. I like to reread books. Yeah, I believe in rereading books. Ed Young wrote a book called In a Men's World. He's not a scientist, but he's a science writer and it's about different sensory modalities that different animals use. And for an animal over like me, it's found it really spectacular.
再一次，访问functionhealth.com/huberman可以获得Function的抢先体验。最近，我在重温一本我非常喜欢的书。顺便说一下，我非常喜欢《Live Wire》这本书，谢谢。这不是客套话，我已经读了三次了。哦，谢谢。它出版的时候我就读过，现在该重温了。我喜欢重读书籍，我相信重读的价值。Ed Young写了一本书《于无声处》，他不是科学家，但是一位科学作家。书中介绍了不同动物使用的各种感官模式。对我这样的动物爱好者来说，这本书真的很精彩。
But he says something that I totally agree with, which is that we shouldn't think so much about whether or not a given animal is good at smell and bad at vision or really good hearing or the valuations of these things are really tough. With visual acuity, we can do it. Like an eagle resolution and versus human resolution. But when it comes to things like smell or touch, the better question he says and I agree is, how much does a given organism or person rely on a given sense will tell you sort of their abilities with that sense? I mean, there's some bounds on that, right? I can't echolocate like a bat, but I'm guessing that if I had to in order to navigate an environment, I could learn to echolocate.
他说了一件我完全同意的事情，那就是我们不应该过多思考某种动物在嗅觉上很好，而在视觉上很差，或者听力特别好，这些方面的判断其实是很难做的。对于视觉的精确度，我们可以进行比较，比如老鹰的视力和人类的视力。但当涉及到嗅觉或触觉时，他认为更好的问题是，一个生物或人依赖某种感官的程度如何，这将告诉你他们在该感官上的能力。我是说，这里面当然有一些限制，比如我不能像蝙蝠那样进行回声定位，但我猜如果要靠它来在环境中导航，我是可以学会回声定位的。
And I think there are individuals who've learned to echolocate. Exactly. The term was coined in 1930 in a science paper, this is generally called echolocation in bats and blind men. And blind people, almost 100 years now, can do this thing where they use clicks in their tongue or the tap of their cane or any kind of sound that they make and they listen very carefully for what's bouncing back to them and they can echolocate. It also turns out that seeing people can echolocate if it is relevant to them.
我认为有些人学会了回声定位。的确如此。这个术语最早是在1930年的一篇科学论文中提出的，通常用来描述蝙蝠和盲人的回声定位。近100年来，盲人可以通过用舌头发出点击声、拐杖敲击声或其它声音，然后仔细聆听反弹回来的声音进行回声定位。事实证明，只要有相关需求，视力正常的人也可以进行回声定位。
Yeah, if you really want to put the effort into it, you can learn how to do it. Again, this just points to the plasticity of the brain, how good it is at doing this. Some years ago, I suggested this Mr. Potato Head theory about thinking about the brain, which is, whatever senses you plug in to a brain, it'll figure out what to do with that information. And so when we look across the animal kingdom, we find all kinds of very weird stuff, not only, you know, eagle eyes and so on, but we find, you know, many animals, like let's say snakes, they pick up on infrared range of vision, which is invisible to us.
是的，如果你真的愿意努力，你可以学会怎么做。再说一次，这只说明了大脑的可塑性，以及在这方面有多强大。几年前，我提出了一个关于大脑的“土豆头先生理论”，意思是无论你给大脑接入什么感官，它都会找到处理那些信息的方法。因此，当我们观察整个动物王国时，我们会发现各种非常奇怪的事物，不仅仅是像鹰眼那样的例子。比如说，有些动物像蛇，可以感知我们人类看不见的红外线范围的视觉。
You've got lots of fish that pick up on perturbations and electrical fields. They have a lecture reception. You have this animal called the Star-Nose Mole, which has this nose with 22 fingers on it, it feels its way through these tunnels with like these 22 fingers. It's a weird thing. Lots of birds and animals and birds and cows and insects have magnetoreception, so they can pick up on the magnetic field of the earth and they can navigate that way. For years, I've stared at this stuff and figured out how in the world does evolution happen so quickly that you can do all this. And this is what led me to this theory that mother nature really only had to invent the brain once, figure out the principles of brain operation.
你会发现，很多鱼类能够感知水中的扰动和电场，它们有一种特别的感知能力。我们可以拿星鼻鼹鼠作为例子，这种动物的鼻子上有22个像手指一样的触须，用来在隧道中摸索前进，看起来很特别。许多鸟类、动物、牛和昆虫都有磁感应的能力，它们能够感知地球的磁场并依此导航。多年来，我一直在观察这些现象，并思考进化为何如此迅速，以至于能产生这些能力。这让我形成了这样一个理论：大自然只需要"发明"一次大脑，弄清大脑运作的基本原理即可。
And after that, she could spend all of her time tweaking the genetics to make all these weird peripheral devices that you plug in and it's all plug and play. Whatever weird thing you come up with, you just say, okay, cool, I'm gonna plug this in. And I'm sure the brain will figure this out and know he does. And that's exactly why we can do sensory substitution. And by the way, sensory enhancement or sensory addition where you can add completely new senses. One example is my colleagues at Ozonebrook built this belt that you wear that's got vibratory motors all around it.
翻译成中文：
之后，她可以花所有时间来调整基因，以制作这些奇怪的外围设备。这些设备就像插头一样，只要插上就能用了。无论你想到多么奇怪的点子，你只需要说，好吧，太棒了，我要把它插上。我相信大脑会弄明白的，事实上它确实能做到。这也是为什么我们能够进行感觉替代的原因。此外，我们还可以进行感觉增强或感官方面的新增加，比如增加全新的感官。举个例子，我在Ozonebrook的同事们制作了一种腰带，你穿上后，腰带周围布满了震动马达。
And this is a little digital compass on it, so it can tell where north is. So whenever your, you know, whichever direction north is on your body, you feel that motor buzzing. So it might be on my left hip if north is that way. But if I turn around, I'll feel that on my right hip and so on. And people get really good at being able to detect which way north is. Just as one example, it's really easy to add new senses like magnetoreception in this case. And people can figure this stuff out. So cool. As a fan of the X-Men in particular, I mean, you mentioned magneto, but that's, but in general, I mean, yeah, different mutations give rise to different abilities.
这是一种带有数字指南针的小设备，可以指出北方的位置。所以无论北方在哪个方向，你的身体哪个位置感受到振动，就可以知道。比如，如果北方在左边，我的左髋会感到振动，但如果我转身，振动就会出现在右髋上。这样人们可以很快学会辨别北方的方向。这只是一个例子，其实给人添加像磁感应这样的新感官非常简单，人们可以掌握这个技能，真是太酷了。作为X战警的粉丝，尤其是提到万磁王的时候，会觉得很有趣，因为不同的“变种”会让人拥有不同的能力。
And that whole series of the X-Men is really about kind of extremes of genetic mutations, giving abilities. And there's some social discussion in there too. But let's talk about dreaming because you mentioned that, you know, everything that we perceive as out there beyond our reach is occurring by virtue of electrical and chemical events in our brain. It's all vaulted in there. Dreams are a unique situation where typically people's eyes are closed when they sleep. And they're often paralyzed during REM sleep. And yet we have very visual dreams. I know you talked about this in live wire, but please share with us what you think is the origin of the visual component of dreams.
整部《X战警》系列实际上是关于基因突变的极端情况，这些突变赋予了角色各种能力。同时，其中也涉及一些社会讨论。不过让我们来谈谈做梦，因为你提到过，我们所感知的一切似乎都超出我们的触及范围，但其实这些都是通过我们大脑中的电化学活动实现的。这一切都存储在我们的大脑中。梦境是一种独特的情况，人们通常在睡觉时闭着眼睛，而且在快速眼动睡眠（REM）期间往往会处于瘫痪状态，但我们依然能做非常生动的梦。我知道你在《Livewire》中谈到过这个问题，但请和我们分享一下你认为梦中视觉成分的起源。
And I'm curious if it relates back to the visual imagery. Continuum that you mentioned earlier. Do some people just tend to have more visual dreams and other people don't? Let me answer that second part first. We're not sure about that. I ask people all the time who are a fanatasia, a hyper-fanatasia, about their dreams. It's hard to tell. I don't see something obvious there, which is to say, when there's dreams, you're getting this activity blasted into your visual cortex. So it's like vision.
我很好奇这是否与您之前提到的视觉意象连续体有关。是不是有些人倾向于有更多的视觉梦，而其他人则不会？让我先回答第二部分。对此我们还不确定。我经常询问那些有幻想缺失症或过度幻想症的人关于他们的梦境。很难看出有什么明显的区别。也就是说，当我们做梦时，这种活动会被投射到你的视觉皮层，就像在看东西一样。
So let me back up to answer the question about my new theory about why we dream because this has everything to do with brain plasticity. So here's where this got started. By about 2013, some of our colleagues at Harvard did this experiment where they put people on the scanner and they blindfolded them tightly. And they were looking at what was going on in the brain. And with touch and with sounds. And it turns out that if you're blindfolded after about an hour, you start seeing a little bit of activity in the visual cortex when you are touched or when you hear something.
为了回答关于我新理论的问题，我要先回顾一下，因为这与大脑的可塑性息息相关。那么，这一切是如何开始的呢？大约在2013年，我们在哈佛的一些同事进行了一项实验，他们让受试者进入扫描仪，并牢牢地蒙住他们的眼睛。他们观察大脑中发生的事情，以及触觉和听觉的反应。结果发现，如果你被蒙住眼睛大约一个小时，当你被触碰或听到声音时，视觉皮层会开始出现一些活动。
Now this was crazy because we know that if somebody goes blind, hearing and touch will take over that territory. But we thought that was on the scale of years. And here what they were demonstrating is that within 16 and 90 minutes, you start seeing little blips of activity. Why? It's because you've got all this cross-modal wiring. In other words, you've got neurons, let's say, in the auditory cortex. That actually reach all the way over to the visual cortex and same with touch neurons and so on.
这真的很不可思议，因为我们知道如果一个人失明，听觉和触觉会在很长一段时间内逐渐加强以补偿视觉的缺失。我们原以为这一过程需要几年时间。但现在他们展示的是，仅在16到90分钟之内，就开始能看到一些小的活动迹象。为什么会这样？是因为大脑中存在大量不同感官之间的交叉连接。换句话说，就好像在听觉皮层中的神经元实际上能够延伸到视觉皮层一样，触觉神经元也是如此。这种交叉连接在短时间内就能发挥作用。
These are normally silent. They don't normally do anything. But they are ready. They're like silent sentinels that say, hey, just in case this territory stops getting used, I'm taking over. OK, so here's what my student and I realized. Is that because we live on a planet that rotates into darkness every night, the visual system is at a unique disadvantage. Because when it starts, you can still hear and smell and touch and taste, but you can't see. And obviously, I'm talking about evolutionary time before the invention of lights, which was the last nanosecond of evolutionary history.
这些通常是沉默的，平时不怎么活动。但是它们已经准备好，就像沉默的哨兵在说：嘿，以防这个区域不再被使用，我就要接管它。我和我的学生意识到的是，因为我们生活在一个每晚都会转入黑暗的行星上，视觉系统面临着独特的不利条件。因为当黑暗来临时，你仍然可以听到、闻到、触摸到和尝到东西，但无法看到。当然，我是在说灯光出现之前的进化时期，那是进化历史上最后的一瞬间。
It was really dark at night, and you can't see. And so you go into the corner of a cave and curl up and go to sleep. But the key is that the visual system was in danger of getting taken over during this long extended period of darkness. So what we hypothesize is that dreams are the brain's way of defending the visual cortex against takeover from the other senses. And when you look at the circuitry, it's this very specific circuitry. Starts in the midbrain, goes to an area called the lateral-genicular nucleus and plugs straight into the primary visual cortex. And that's it. Every 90 minutes, you have this volley of activity that just slams into the primary visual cortex. It doesn't go anywhere else in the brain.
晚上真的很黑，你什么也看不见。于是，你走到一个洞穴的角落里，蜷缩起来，睡觉。然而，关键在于，由于漫长的黑暗期，视觉系统有被其他感官占据的危险。我们的假设是，梦是大脑保护视觉皮层不被其他感官占领的一种方式。观察这些神经回路时，可以发现这是一种非常特殊的回路。它从中脑开始，通过一个叫做外侧膝状核的区域，直接连接到初级视觉皮层。就这样，每隔90分钟，这种活动就会猛烈地冲击初级视觉皮层，不会扩散到大脑的其他区域。
And so every 90 minutes, you've got this automated way of making activity happen there. And because we are visual creatures, we see that as a dream. We see a whole story. And because the brain is a storyteller, we impose plot, meaning, we have emotion that goes with that. But the key is this is the brain's way of defending territory in the dark. And so what we did then is we examined very carefully 25 species of primates and looked at their brain plasticity.
每隔90分钟，你就可以用一种自动化的方法在那儿制造活动。由于我们是视觉动物，这种活动被我们视作一个梦，一个完整的故事。因为大脑善于讲故事，我们会在梦境中加上情节、意义，并伴随着情感。但关键是，这是一种大脑在黑暗中保护领地的方式。于是我们仔细研究了25种灵长类动物，观察它们的大脑可塑性。
And you can measure this with different proxies like when they start to walk and when they get to reproduction age and so on. And some creatures like the gray mouse lemur, which is a type of monkey, they are born, let's just say, pre-programmed. They pop out. They're really quick to stop to wean and reach juvenile age and reproduce and so on. Whereas you look at homo sapiens, we're super. So we've got these extended infancies. And we take a long time to learn how to walk and so on. OK, because we're very plastic, we end up in the world half-baked.
你可以通过不同的指标来衡量这些，比如他们什么时候开始走路，什么时候达到生殖年龄等。有些生物，比如灰鼠狐猴（一种猴子），它们出生时就可以说是有预设程序的。它们出生后，很快就停止哺乳，达到幼年期并开始繁殖。相比之下，看看智人（即我们人类），我们的童年时期非常长。我们花很长时间来学习走路等技能。因为我们具有很高的可塑性，当我们来到这个世界时，还未完全成熟。
OK, well, it turns out if you plot how much REM sleep each of these animals get, the more plastic the animal, like homo sapiens, we've got tons of REM sleep. And by the way, this is mostly in infancy. Infants spend 50% of their time in REM sleep. As you get older and your brain becomes less plastic, you have a drop-off in REM sleep. And by the way, when you look across animal species of all types, you find that the animals that are born with extended infancies need to figure out how to do stuff in the world, they all have much more REM sleep, like eight times more REM sleep, than animals that are born essentially mature, like cows and giraffes and zebras and whatever.
好的，事实证明，如果你绘制这些动物的快速眼动（REM）睡眠时间图，你会发现越是具有可塑性的动物，比如智人（人类），其快速眼动睡眠时间就越多。而且，这种现象主要发生在婴儿期。婴儿有50%的时间都在快速眼动睡眠中。随着年龄的增长，大脑的可塑性减弱，快速眼动睡眠的时间也会减少。再看看各种动物，你会发现，那些出生时需要经历较长婴儿期并在这个世界上探索学习的动物，它们的快速眼动睡眠时间要多得多，大约是那些基本上出生时就成熟的动物（比如牛、长颈鹿和斑马等）的八倍。
You know, they show up, they start walking in 40 minutes and so on. They have much less REM sleep than we do. So anyway, this is our hypothesis about why we dream. And it's the only hypothesis that makes quantitative predictions across species. Super interesting. And we know that REM associated dreams are much more emotionally elaborate than deep sleep dreams. Yeah, and the important part here, of course, is they're more visually elaborate. There are dreams that people can have in deep sleep.
你知道，他们一出生就会出现，然后在40分钟内就能开始行走等等。他们的快速眼动（REM）睡眠比我们少得多。所以，无论如何，这是我们关于为什么我们做梦的假设。而且，这是唯一一个可以在不同物种间做出定量预测的假设。非常有趣。我们知道，与深度睡眠的梦相比，快速眼动睡眠相关的梦在情感上更加复杂。当然，重要的是，这些梦在视觉上也更加丰富。在深度睡眠中，人们也能做梦。
Obviously, the way that this gets studied is, you know, is you rouse the sleeper and you say, hey, what were you just dreaming about? What were you just thinking about? And so if you do that during REM sleep where their eyes are moving around, they'll say, whoa, I was just riding across a metal on a camel and this was what was going on. If you wake somebody during other stages of sleep, deep sleep, they'll, you know, they sometimes have something like, well, I was just considering this feeling I had of whatever, but it's not as visual.
显然，当研究这个问题时，你会叫醒正在睡觉的人，然后问他们正在做什么梦或者在想什么。如果你在快速眼动睡眠阶段（即他们的眼睛在动的时候）叫醒他们，他们可能会说：“哇，我刚才梦见骑着骆驼穿越一个金属平原，事情就是这样的。” 但如果你在其他睡眠阶段叫醒他们，比如深度睡眠，他们有时候会说：“嗯，我刚才只是在考虑我有的某种感觉。” 但是这种描述通常没有那么具象化。
It's not as rich as I like. By the way, people who are blind still have dreams, but their dreams are not visual. They have a dream like, oh, I was, you know, feeling my way around the living room, but all the furniture was rearranged and then I felt in the corner and it was a Jaguar and the Jaguar started chasing me and I was trying to get away from it and so on. But it's sound, it's touch, it's things like that. Why? Because their occipital lobe at the back of their head is not visual.
这并没有我想象的那么丰富。顺便提一下，盲人依然会做梦，但他们的梦不是基于视觉的。他们可能会梦到自己在客厅里摸索，发现家具都被重新摆放了，然后在角落里摸到了一只美洲虎，美洲虎开始追赶他们，他们努力想要逃离等等。不过这些梦主要是关于声音、触觉和类似的感官体验。为什么呢？因为他们脑后枕叶并不是用来处理视觉信息的。
It's kind of for these other things. So the dreaming circuitry, which is very ancient, is just blasting activity into that area of the occipital lobe and so they experience whatever that correlates with. So cool. I want to move on to questions that I have about science and the law, but before I do, I just, I was told by a very, very talented magician, mentalist recently that there's a guy down in Brazil who does magic tricks for blind people using only the auditory domain.
这些事情有点类似。因此，做梦的神经回路，非常古老的，正在将活动大量传递到枕叶的那个区域，所以他们会经历与之相关的任何感受。这非常酷。在我继续谈论我关于科学和法律的问题之前，我想说的是，最近一位非常有才华的魔术师和心灵魔术师告诉我，在巴西有个人只用听觉来为盲人表演魔术。
And apparently if you blindfold yourself and you spend a bit of time around him, you can start to hear these magic tricks and they're not just illusions of sound leaping. And so I said, well, give me an example. He said, you have to just experience this. This is something we should, we should, we should do this. We should do this. We should meet this person. Just a complete perceptual bend to try and get one's head around that.
据说，如果你蒙上眼睛，在他身边待一段时间，你可以开始听到他的魔术表演，这些不仅仅是声音传递的幻觉。所以我说，那给我举个例子。他说，你必须亲自体验一下。这是我们应该，我们应该，我们应该做的事情。我们应该这样做。我们应该去见见这个人。这完全是一种感知弯曲，试图理解这一切。
By the way, counselors who deal with these blind students at these blind schools, they're generally encouraged to blindfold themselves for like seven days and they absolutely start having totally different experiences. Their brain starts changing. I still won't do one of those darkness cave retreats. People have tried to persuade me to do those. I have no interest. I love sunlight. I want to keep my circadian rhythm and training mint intact. I, I, you know, if that's what people want to do, also I heard about someone going to do it and then they flipped on the lights at the end, they went back into scene and the place it was covered with spiders. No.
顺便提一下，在盲校里负责盲生的辅导员通常会被建议自己蒙上眼睛，比如七天，他们会经历完全不同的体验。他们的大脑开始发生变化。不过，我绝对不会去参加那些黑暗洞穴静修营。人们曾试图说服我去，但我没有兴趣。我喜欢阳光，希望保持我的昼夜节律完整。每个人都有自己的选择，我听说过一个人去参加这种静修营，最后打开灯时，发现地方到处都是蜘蛛。不行。
So clean the place up. Science and the law. Earlier we were talking about how under stressful circumstances, frame rate of perception is not increased, but memory density is higher. Yes. Can I therefore take the leap that let's just say, and these are usually tragic circumstances, if there are two individuals, it's limited to two, for sake of example, in a high stress, highly traumatic interaction, but one is more stressed than the other.
把这个地方打扫干净。科学与法律。刚才我们谈到，在压力大的情况下，人对事物的感知速率并不会增加，但记忆的密度会更高。是的。那么，我是否可以推测——假设在通常是悲剧性的情境下，有两个人，为了简单起见，只限于两个，他们正处于高压力、极具创伤性的互动中，但其中一个比另一个更加紧张。
Maybe they're the victim in that case, that their density of memory is higher and therefore, even though there's a perceptual difference, perhaps more accurate than for the person who was calmer. Or is there a threshold at which stress limits memory and therefore the person who is calmer has a more accurate memory? Great question. Well, it turns out, first of all, what victims often have is what's called weapon focus.
也许在那种情况下，他们是受害者，因为他们的记忆密度更高，所以即使他们的感知存在差异，他们的记忆可能比那些镇定的人更准确。或者是否存在一个阈值，当压力限制记忆时，那些较为镇定的人反而有更准确的记忆？这是一个很好的问题。首先，事实证明，受害者通常会经历所谓的“武器焦点”效应。
So if the other person has a knife or a gun, that's all they remember, you know, describe the guy's face. I don't remember the guy's face because I was staring at the gun. So it turns out that what they pay attention to is sort of the wrong thing for forensic purposes. That's number one, but number two is this much deeper issue that even amygdala memories are not necessarily accurate.
所以，如果对方有刀或枪，他们只会记得这些东西。你知道，让他们描述那个人的脸，但他们根本不记得，因为他们只盯着枪看。因此，结果就是，他们关注的东西对法证目的来说并不准确。这是第一点，不过第二点是，即使是由杏仁核形成的记忆也不一定准确。
So, you know, our colleague Elizabeth Phelps did this experiment right after 9-11 in 2001, shortly after the event happened, she went and interviewed lots of people in downtown in Midtown, New York about what they saw on September 11th and she was smart enough to interview them also about what they remembered from September 10th, you know, what they ate for breakfast the day and so on.
所以，你知道，我们的同事伊丽莎白·费尔普斯在2001年的9·11事件发生后不久就进行了这个实验。她去了纽约的市中心和中城，采访了很多人，询问他们在9月11日那天看到了什么。她很聪明，还询问了他们对9月10日的记忆，比如那天早餐吃了什么等。
Okay, she then found the three months later, she followed up a year later, she ended up doing that 10 years later as well. What they found is that the traumatic memories of 9-11, even though those are amygdala memories, they drifted just as much as the memories of, you know, what they ate for lunch on September 10th. And so an unfortunate fact for the law is that memories are not accurate, they drift.
好的，她在三个月后进行了调查，一年后又进行了一次，最终在十年后也进行了调查。他们发现，即使是像9·11事件这样由杏仁核储存的创伤性记忆，其实跟他们对9月10日下午餐记忆的变化程度是一样的。这对于法律来说是个不幸的事实，因为记忆并不准确，是会发生漂移和变化的。
Every time we check in on memories, we're changing them and it becomes kind of like the operator game where one person says something in the other person's ear and the next person repeats that and next person repeats that. There's a sense in which we're always playing the operator game with ourselves, you know, each time we pull up a memory, it's changing and it gets modified and colored by new information that we have. So that's the bad news for the legal system.
每次我们回忆记忆时，实际上都会改变它们。这有点像传话游戏：一个人对另一个人耳语一句话，然后这个人再传给下一个人，如此循环。可以说，我们每次回忆时，都是在和自己玩传话游戏。每次提取记忆，它都会因为我们获得的新信息而被改变和重新塑造。这对法律系统来说是个坏消息。
And so the legal system has gotten really smart about this over the last 30 years and tried to make sure that they take care of things that happen. Let's say with eyewitness identification. So one thing is, you know, police suggestibility. So if I'm looking at a lineup and I say, gosh, you know, I think that's the guy and the police officer says, yeah, I think that's the guy, you know, I agree with you on that.
在过去的30年里，法律体系在这方面变得非常聪明，并努力确保妥善处理发生的事情。比如说在目击者识别方面。一个问题就是警察的暗示性。假如我在看一个嫌疑人排队时说：“天哪，我觉得那就是那个家伙。”而警官说：“是啊，我也觉得是他，你知道，我同意你的看法。”
Then what happens is when I go to court three months later, I say to the judge, yeah, I'm 100% confident, even though at the time of the lineup, I wasn't confident at all, but I come to think I am. There are many, many ways that things get implemented so that we can try to work around how lousy our memories are. One thing is separating witnesses right away because if you and I witness a crime and then you say, oh my God, you know, I think the guy had long hair and I say, no, no, I think it was short hair or whatever.
然后发生的情况是，三个月后我上法庭的时候，我对法官说，我百分之百有信心。虽然在辨认队列的时候，我一点信心都没有，但后来我认为我有了信心。为了应对我们记忆力不佳的问题，有很多方法可以实施。比如，立即将目击者分开，因为如果你和我目击了犯罪，然后你说“天哪，我觉得那个人留着长头发”，而我说“不不，我觉得是短头发”之类的。
We're influencing each other's memory and the things that we say end up changing what the other believes to be true. One of the classes I teach is the brain and the law. And I do this thing every year. I sort of hate to give this away on a podcast, but here's what I do. I'm teaching the class and a woman busts into the back of the classroom and starts screaming and he says, are you Dr. Eagleman? I say, yeah, I say, excuse me.
我们在相互影响彼此的记忆，我们说的话会改变对方所相信的真相。我教的一门课叫“大脑与法律”，每年我都会在课上做这样一件事。我其实不太愿意在播客里透露这个，但我还是说说吧。在上课的时候，一名女士会突然闯进教室，并大声喊叫，她会问："你是Eagleman博士吗？" 我回答说："是的，请问有什么事？"
I'm teaching a class. She says, I've been sending you emails and you've ever written back and blah, blah. I say, excuse me. I am teaching a class. I'm happy to talk to you afterwards. I'm sorry I don't get to all my emails and she says, well, I'm gonna wait for it. Okay, so then I keep teaching the class and then after 20 minutes or so I say to the class, look, I'm gonna call security, but I don't know what she looked like.
我正在上课。她说，“我一直给你发邮件，但你从来没回复过，”等等。我说：“对不起，我正在上课。等会儿下课后我可以和你聊。抱歉我没能回复所有邮件。”她说，“好吧，我会等。”于是我继续上课。大约20分钟后，我对全班说：“我要叫保安过来，但我不知道她长什么样。”
I need you guys to write down what you remember about her. I said, all I remember is that she had a big mole on her left cheek and that's all I was able to really see. And so everyone writes down their stuff. Now, not surprisingly, I witness identification is terrible. Everyone comes up with extraordinarily different descriptions of what the woman looked like. One thing they tend to have in common is this mole on left cheek, which I made up. The woman doesn't have that, but it's a demonstration that planting something even accidentally, in my case, on purpose, will influence your memory of what you think happened.
我需要你们写下你们对她的记忆。我说，我唯一记得的是她左脸颊上有一个很大的痣，仅此而已。所以大家都写下了他们的记忆。毫不意外，目击者的识别能力非常差。每个人描述的这个女人的样子都大相径庭。唯一相同的是左脸颊有一颗痣，这其实是我编造的。这个女人并没有那颗痣，但这证明了即使是无意中（在我的情况下是故意）植入的信息，也会影响你对事件的记忆。
Obviously it's an actor that I hire every year, but it demonstrates how poorly we remember things. How does the legal system deal with, forget I witness account, just of potential perpetrators, but just like recollection in general. Yeah, well, this has been all the way up to the Supreme Court because some guy was accused from, you know, he got sent to jail based on the I witness testimony of a woman who was up on the second floor, seeing him from there and it was dark out and he said, look, that can't be reliable.
显然这是我每年雇佣的一位演员，但这也显示了我们记忆力有多差。法律系统如何处理这种问题呢，不仅仅是证人证词，还包括对潜在嫌疑犯的记忆等等。是的，这个问题甚至上诉到了最高法院。因为有个人被一个在二楼的女子的证词指认为罪犯并因此入狱，她在晚上从二楼看到他。他辩解说这证词不可能可靠。
I witness testimony. So this went to the Supreme Court and they said, look, sorry, but we can't guarantee reliable I witness testimony and if we were to ever try to legislate that, that would ruin most court cases because most things are predicated on I witness testimony. So what the legal system tries to do is just educate jurors about this, about how seriously to take it because, and by the way, I should mention, unfortunately, people are very swayed by this jurors are, meaning, you know, scientists might get up and say, look, there's this information or that, but then some, I would assess, you know, I witness comes up on the stand and says, look, I don't know about all that science stuff, but I know what I saw and the jury is swayed by that.
我目击证词。因此，这个问题提交到了最高法院，他们表示，很遗憾，我们无法保证目击证词的可靠性。如果我们试图对其进行立法，这将破坏大多数案件，因为大多数案件都依赖于目击证词。因此，法律体系所做的是通过教育陪审团，让他们了解该如何对待目击证词的重要性。不过，我要提到一点，不幸的是，陪审员很容易被目击证词左右。也就是说，科学家可以站出来提出各种信息，但当某个目击者上庭，说“我不知道这些科学的东西，但我知道我看到了什么”时，陪审团常常会被这种证词所影响。
So it's not easy to educate jurors on this because people fundamentally, even after education, feel like, okay, but I know that my memory is like a video camera. So anyway, but that's one thing that the legal system tries to do and tries not to take it as gospel. Are kids versus adults more prone to making up stories under these circumstances? Exactly. I think that I like most, I'm not gonna speak for most people, I assume that kids tell the truth.
所以，让陪审员理解这点并不容易，因为即使经过教育，人们通常还是觉得：好吧，但我知道我的记忆就像录像机一样。这是司法系统试图解决的问题，并努力不把记忆完全当作事实。孩子和成年人在这种情况下谁更容易编造故事呢？没错，我想大多数人，我不能代表他们说话，但我倾向于相信孩子们会说实话。
I mean, kids don't always tell the truth, but that they don't understand all the incentives systems around lying that some adults do. And so I think we tend to believe what kids say. Oh, but kids are actually more susceptible to memory manipulation. So Elizabeth Loftis at Irvine ran these studies years ago where she, well, here's, sorry, this is slightly different but what she's doing in these cases is she says to someone, hey, I talked to your parents, she actually did talk to the person, and she says, I found out a story from when you were younger about the time you got lost in the mall and you were found by this woman in a red hat who then found your parents and so on.
我的意思是，孩子们不总是说实话，但他们不像一些成年人那样了解围绕撒谎的各种激励机制。因此，我认为我们往往会相信孩子们说的话。不过，孩子们其实更容易受到记忆操控的影响。伊丽莎白·洛芙蒂斯在尔湾进行了一些研究，她会对某人说：“嘿，我和你的父母聊过了，我了解到一个关于你小时候的故事：你曾经在商场迷路，被一个戴红帽子的女人找到，之后她帮你找到了父母。”
And it turns out she can make these stories completely up and people will come to believe these. And once you interview them a week later, that is just part of the fact of their life resume is that they were lost in the mall and found this woman, the red hat and so on. I mean, that has huge implications for therapy to unearth repressed memories and so-called repressed memories. Maybe we need dogs to just, you know, where it's completely unbiased to evaluate the veracity of some of these claims.
事实证明，她可以完全捏造这些故事，而人们会相信这些。一周后再采访他们时，这些故事已经成了他们人生经历的一部分，比如他们曾在商场迷路并遇到了戴红帽子的女人等等。这对于挖掘被压抑的记忆以及所谓的压抑记忆的治疗方法有很大的影响。也许我们需要狗来评估这些说法的真实性，因为它们是完全公正的。
Well, here's what I think. Look, you and I grew up in a slightly different world where if I count the number of childhood photos that I have, that I see, you know, I've got like little landmarks every couple of years. Oh, that was me at eight years old, standing in front of my house in Albuquerque and that was me at 10 years old and so on. But now, you know, we have an Alexa in our kitchen and it's constantly cycling through the pictures of my kids who see that every day.
好吧，这是我的看法。你看，你和我成长在一个有些不同的时代。如果我数一数我小时候的照片，我每隔几年就有一些纪念照。哦，那是我八岁时站在阿尔伯克基我家门前，那是我十岁时的样子，等等。但现在，我们厨房里有一个Alexa，它不停地轮播我孩子们的照片，他们每天都能看到。
It's, oh, that was me a few years ago. That was me last month and so on. I think kids are now much more tightly tied to their memory. In a way that might prove very useful. Unuseful in the sense that maybe you can't get away from your childhood, but useful in the sense that at least your memory is going to be slightly more accurate because you're getting, you know, repetition, you're getting space repetition on it.
这就像是，哦，那就是几年前的我，那也是上个月的我，等等。我觉得现在的孩子对自己的记忆有了更紧密的联系。这可能会非常有用。不利的一面是，你可能无法摆脱你的童年，但有利的一面是，至少你的记忆会更准确一些，因为你得到了反复的复习和间隔重复的训练。
A previous guest hypothesized, I don't think this was based on real data, hypothesized that, you know, like if you go to a concert now, everyone's taking photos of the concert as opposed to just experiencing the concert. They hypothesized that perhaps people have more memory of the photo-taking experience and the photo than the actual experience, which is kind of an interesting divergence, like of like the perceptual window that you're taking in information through. Not telling people not to take photos, but it is, or videos, but it is sort of interesting that you're at a concert that, you know, thousands of people are at, and everyone's taping it and projecting them, maybe it's because people want to project themselves into the concert for their friends and followers to see. I suspect it's a social issue.
之前有一位嘉宾提出了一个假设，我认为这并不是基于真实数据的假设。他认为，假如你现在去参加一场音乐会，大家都在拍照，而不是纯粹地体验音乐会。他假设，人们可能对拍照这一过程和照片本身的记忆，会比对实际体验的记忆要多。这是一个有趣的分歧，关于你通过何种感知窗口获取信息。并不是说不让人们拍照或录像，而是觉得很有趣，一个有上千人参加的音乐会，所有人都在录制并分享，或许是因为人们想要让他们的朋友和关注者看到他们在音乐会中的样子。我猜这可能是一个社会性的问题。
Yeah, everyone wants to prove that they were there. You know, I went and saw the Mona Lisa who was the Louvre recently, and every person there was just taking a picture of it, instead of standing there looking at the DM Mona Lisa, but here's my suspicion is that they might have a slightly less present experience at the moment, but maybe it also lasts longer in the sense that everyone's the wilder, they see that picture themselves the concert and they remember it. So maybe the area under the curve is the same.
是啊，每个人都想证明他们曾经到过那里。你知道，我最近去卢浮宫看了《蒙娜丽莎》，结果在那里的人都在拍照，而不是静静地欣赏这幅画。不过，我的猜测是，他们此时此刻的体验可能不如直接欣赏来得强烈，但从另一个角度看，拍照这种方式可能让记忆持续得更久。因为每当他们看到这些照片时，就会回忆起这个经历。所以，也许总体上“感受的总量”是一样的。
We live in a, a polarized world right now. I think it was always polarized, but it seems increasingly so. Is it more polarized and you've done some interesting work on the neuroscience around polarization? And I think it's just important for us to be aware of the fact that we're all prone to this. And perhaps also, I would hope to also push back on it. I also feel like people like to be in the echo chamber, that there might be some dopamine reward or other neuromodulator reward for kind of verifying what we think to be true. I also think this is a social thing. I think you can't even talk about beliefs that we hold without talking about what that means for identity and for what team we're on.
我们现在生活在一个极化的世界。我认为这个世界一直存在极化现象，但最近似乎越来越明显。这种极化真的加剧了吗？您在极化现象的神经科学方面做了一些有趣的研究。我认为意识到我们都有可能受到这种现象影响是很重要的，希望我们能对此有所抵制。我还觉得人们喜欢待在他们的信息茧房中，可能是因为确认我们认为正确的事情会带来多巴胺或者其他神经调节物质的奖励。我也认为这是一种社会现象。我们在谈论自己持有的信念时，无法不涉及这些信念对我们的身份认同以及我们所属的群体有何意义。
Okay, so let me back up. I think we're not any more polarized than ever before, just as an example, look at the 20th century you've got. Now, if you look really what happened with Nazism in Europe, in Germany or fascism in Italy or what happened in Cambodia with Paul Potter and Rwanda or the Chinese and communist revolution, all these things were extraordinarily polarized moments where people took up arms and killed their neighbors. And that was all pre-social media. So I don't think that has much to do with it, except that I do think maybe we're more aware because it used to be that everyone was in their echo chambers, also nothing new there. But all of your friends and neighbors and whatever, all believed in whatever.
好吧，让我重新说一下。我认为我们并没有比以前更加两极分化。举个例子，看看20世纪发生的事情。比如欧洲的纳粹主义、德国，或者意大利的法西斯主义，或者柬埔寨波尔布特的事件，还有卢旺达或中国的共产主义革命，这些都是极端两极分化的时刻，人们甚至拿起武器相互厮杀。而这些都发生在社交媒体出现之前。所以我认为这和社交媒体关系不大。不过我确实觉得我们可能更容易意识到这些问题，因为过去每个人都待在自己的回音室里，这也不是什么新鲜事。你身边的朋友和邻居，无论是谁，大家都有着相同的信仰。
And so you didn't realize there were other people who believed other things, but I think now we're just much more exposed to that. Okay, so polarization, nothing really knew about that, but it's very important for us to understand this. So one of the experiments we did in my lab was the following. We put people in the brain scanner, FMI, they see six hands on the screen. All the hands look pretty much alike. And the computer goes around, and it picks one of the hands, and then you see that hand get stabbed with a syringe needle. What happens is you have this empathic response, specifically this network of areas that we summarize as the pain matrix comes online. It's not your hand getting stabbed, unless you're watching a hand getting stabbed, and this is the neural basis of empathy, you're feeling, what would it feel like if that were my hand? Great.
你没有意识到还有其他人相信不同的事情，但我认为现在我们更加接触到了这种多样性。 好吧，极化现象其实并不是什么新鲜事，但理解这一点对我们来说非常重要。在我的实验室里，我们做了这样一个实验：我们让人们进入脑扫描仪中（功能性磁共振成像，FMI），屏幕上出现六只手。这些手看起来几乎一模一样。然后电脑会选择其中一只手，你会看到那只手被针筒刺了一下。这时，你会产生一种移情反应，尤其是大脑中与疼痛相关的网络区域，我们称之为 "痛觉矩阵"，会被激活。虽然被刺的不是你的手，但当你看到一只手被刺时，就会激发同情心，你会感受到“如果那是我的手会是什么感觉”。很好。
Okay, now what we do is we put a one word label on each hand. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Scientologists, Hindu, atheist. The computer goes around, it picks a hand, you see that hand get stabbed, and the question is, does your brain care as much if it's a member of one of your out groups versus your end group? Turns out the answer to pressingly is that your brain cares much less. So the size of the empathic response, if it's your end group, is enhanced from what it was, and if it's any one of your out groups, it's diminished. By the way, this is not a criticism of religion, because we find exactly the same thing with atheists. People who profess themselves as atheists really care when they see the atheist hand get stabbed.
好的，现在我们在每只手上贴上一个单词标签：基督徒、犹太人、穆斯林、山达基教徒、印度教徒、无神论者。电脑会随机选择一只手，你会看到那只手被刺，然后问题是，如果那只是你“外群体”成员的手，而非“内群体”成员的手，你的大脑反应如何？结果表明，大脑对“外群体”成员的同情反应明显弱于“内群体”成员。如果是“内群体”，同情反应会更强烈，而如果是“外群体”，同情反应则会减弱。此外，这并不是在批评宗教，因为我们发现无神论者也有同样的反应。当看到无神论者的手被刺时，他们的同情心会更强。
Yeah, it's everything about end groups and out groups. So it turns out this is such a low-level response. Now, happily, this doesn't necessarily map on to how you act as a person. This is just your first response. You care more about your end groups. Other labs like Tony Singer and others have shown very similar versions of this with even things like sports teams. In fact, one of the experiments we did was we brought fresh people in and we said, hey, I want you to toss a coin. If it's heads, you're a Justinian. If it's tails, you're an Augustinian. So they toss the coin, they find out what they are. We give them a wristband that reminds them that they're Justinian or Augustinian, then they go in the scanner and they see Justinian or Augustinian hands getting stabbed. And it turns out they have a bigger response predicated on their team, completely arbitrary label. It doesn't mean anything. But this is how we are wired, very much, very strongly for end groups and out groups.
是的，这一切都与内部群体和外部群体有关。事实证明，这是一种非常低级的反应。不过，令人欣慰的是，这并不一定反映你作为一个人会如何行动。这只是你的初始反应。你更关心自己的内部群体。其他实验室，比如托尼·辛格的团队，已经通过类似的实验展示了这种现象，甚至涉及到体育队伍。实际上，我们做过的一个实验是带来一组新人，然后对他们说，你们抛硬币，如果是正面，你就是“贾斯提尼派”，如果是反面，你就是“奥古斯提尼派”。他们抛硬币后，知道了自己的群体身份，我们给他们一个腕带，以提醒他们是“贾斯提尼派”还是“奥古斯提尼派”。之后，他们在扫描仪里看到“贾斯提尼派”或“奥古斯提尼派”的手被刺伤。结果显示，他们对自己群体的反应更强烈，尽管这种标签完全是随机的，没有实际意义。但这就是我们的大脑设计，非常强烈地倾向于内部和外部群体划分。
Obviously, this is a real problem for everything we're witnessing around us. Can I ask you a question? I have a theory unsubstantiated by any laboratory data that we all naturally feel some degree of empathy for both common group and other group, except for groups that we really despise. Okay, I think there are some people who provided that the other person is being tortured or killed. There's like, oh, well, dislike them anyway. But I think we tend to feel, we know how we feel about someone or a group when something good happens for them. To me, it's a much stronger indicator. So as the reverse experiment ever been done, where instead of the hand getting stabbed with a syringe, the person of same group or outside group is being given something that is of value.
显然，这对我们周围所观察到的一切来说是个真正的问题。我可以问你一个问题吗？我有个未经实验室数据验证的理论：我们天生对相同群体和其他群体都有一定程度的同情心，除非是我们非常厌恶的群体。我想，有些人在看到别人被折磨或杀害时，会冷漠地觉得反正不喜欢他们。但我认为，当我们看到某人或某个群体获得好处时，我们对他们的真实感受才更加明显。是否反过来做过实验？不是手被针刺，而是同群体或外群体的人得到了有价值的东西。
That's interesting. I don't know. I don't think anyone's run that experiment to my knowledge. Because if I tell you, like, okay, if I were to have access to your thoughts, and I could find like a hundred people that you like on and it range that you know in your mind and arrange them on the continuum of really, really adore this person all the way to, like, actually, I'm not gonna use the word hate, but like really, really dislike this person. And I tell you, you know, and give any one of them a stage three pancreatic cancer. I imagine as an empathic person, you're gonna be like, oh, that sucks. But if I instead flip it and say, okay, you know, this person you really, you really like, they have something spectacular happen to them. Versus somebody that you dislike, something's to be like, there's a little bit of a twist on the feeling of happiness for somebody that you don't like receiving something that maybe you think they didn't deserve.
这很有趣。我不知道，据我所知，好像没有人做过这样的实验。如果我能读取你的想法，找到你心中认可的一百个人，并根据你对他们的喜欢程度进行排列，从非常喜欢到非常不喜欢（我不会用“讨厌”这个词）。然后我告诉你，你知道，其中任何一个人得了三期胰腺癌。作为一个富有同情心的人，你可能会觉得：「哦，这真糟糕。」但是，如果我反过来说，告诉你，有一个你非常喜欢的人发生了非常好的事情，而对一个你不喜欢的人，也发生了类似好的事情，你的感受可能会有些不同，尤其是当你觉得他们不值得的时候。
And I think we are all wired this way to some extent. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. To my knowledge, no one has done that experiment. And it's, in a sense, it's because this issue of when something bad happens to someone, we naturally have an empathic response. If it's a stranger, look at the issue of, I don't know, let's say some older gentleman gets, you know, his nose broken because someone attacks him outdoors at a park. You would feel empathy for that. But now if I tell you, oh, look, he was at a Democrat rally or a Republican rally, depending on your perspective on the world, you might have differential empathy predicated on, you know, how strongly you feel on one team or the other.
我认为我们每个人在某种程度上都是这样与生俱来的。这确实是一个很有趣的观点。据我所知，还没有人做过这样的实验。从某种意义上说，这是因为当某人遭遇不幸时，我们自然而然会产生同情心。如果这个人是个陌生人，比如说，一个老先生在公园里被人攻击，鼻子被打破了，你会为他感到同情。但是如果我告诉你，这个人是在参加一个民主党集会或共和党集会，根据你对世界的看法，你可能会因为你对某个团队的支持，会对他产生不同程度的同情心。
Here's the thing, even with pancreatic cancer, there's a whole lot of experience from my lab and other labs that shows that sometimes when something happens to someone that we don't like, the reward system actually comes on. This was Tony Singh had a nature paper on this, showing that you actually show reward system activation when something happens, which is awful. But one thing I have always noticed in the movies is that you're watching the James Bond movie or whatever. And the bad guy, you know, falls from a 500 foot building, splats on the ground, and you like, you know, eat popcorn, you don't care at all. That's something awful happened to somebody. Whereas if James Bond gets grazed by a bullet, you're like, oh, poor guy.
事情是这样的，即使是患有胰腺癌，我的实验室和其他实验室的许多经验表明，有时候当我们不喜欢的事情发生在某人身上时，奖励系统实际上会被激活。这一点在Tony Singh的一篇《自然》期刊论文中有提到，研究表明，当某些可怕的事情发生时，你实际上的奖励系统会被激活。但我一直在电影中注意到的是，比如在看《詹姆斯·邦德》电影或其他电影时，坏人从500英尺高的建筑物上掉下来，啪的一声摔在地上，而你可能一边吃爆米花，一边毫不在意。尽管可怕的事情发生在某人身上，而当詹姆斯·邦德被子弹擦伤时，你会觉得“哦，可怜的家伙。”
It's weird how much we can dial this around where we simply don't care when bad things happen to other people. And what you're describing provides a very useful filter for what we see out there in the media. And you know, just recently, there was this event that's being debated very intensely from both sides. Someone was shot, whose fault was it, what they were in the right to shoot her, etc. I mean, it's like, it's immediate polarization around, you know, same collection of videos to totally different interpretations. Right. Because was that woman your protagonist, your antagonist? And just like in the movies, we have a completely different empathic response based on that.
我们对于别人的不幸无动于衷，这种能力的变化范围之大，实在有些奇怪。你提到的事情正好提供了一个非常有用的过滤框架，让我们理解媒体上的信息。最近，有一起事件引发了激烈的辩论：有人被枪击，争论的焦点在于到底是谁的错，他们是否有权开枪等等。同样的视频，却引发了截然不同的解读。这是因为人们将事件中的女性视为主角还是反派角色，就像在电影中一样，我们的同情心会完全不同。
In the sort of hypothetical example of an experiment where people that are either same group or different group are rewarded, I feel like it gets to an issue that's a little bit more subtle than when people are harmed. Because it gets to the zero, this notion of zero sum. Like if somebody else gets something, does that mean anything was taken from you? Not necessarily, right? But there are some people who go through life seeing people get things and they feel the pain of what they didn't get by virtue of someone else getting something. And it's got to be a very difficult place to live. And yet I've known people like that. They, you know, there are people who hate rich people.
在一个假想的实验中，人们被分为同组或不同组，然后得到奖励。我觉得这个问题比人们受伤时要微妙一些。这涉及到一种零和的概念。如果其他人得到一些东西，是否意味着你失去了一些东西？不一定，对吧？但有些人生活中看到别人得到东西，就感受到一种因为别人得到了自己未得到而带来的痛苦。这种感受一定很难受。我确实认识这样的人，他们会憎恨富人。
Yeah. And they hate them for a number of reasons. Maybe they were treated poorly, et cetera. They hate famous people. They hate beautiful people. They hate, you can see this, right? And what aspect of self-other in group outgroup does that relate to? Because it gets us to this notion of how much resource there is to go around. Something for someone else is something taken from us. Is a very different perspective. Yeah, that's right. I don't know the answer to that, except that people clearly are wired differently on that in terms of whether they think it's a zero sum game or there's, you know, infinite resources.
是的，他们因为种种原因讨厌他们。可能是因为受到不公平对待等等。他们讨厌名人，讨厌美丽的人。这些你都能看到，这种情绪和自我与他人、群体内外的关系有什么关联呢？这让我们想到资源分配的问题。对某人好的事情在我们这里似乎就成了被夺去的资源。这是一种完全不同的观点。是的没错。我不知道确切的答案，但是很显然，人们在这个问题上的思维方式不同：有些人认为资源是零和游戏，而有些人则相信资源是无限的。
Do we see it in animals? Yes, actually. There are experiments on capuchin monkeys where the monkey does something and then gets a piece of banana. And then the other monkey does something in the neighboring cage and gets a piece of banana. And so they're doing this. But then the other monkey doing it gets a grape, which is a big treat for the monkey. And the first monkey goes nuts and is shaking the bar. He's so angry that the other monkey got a better reward. There's this sense of fairness that's actually quite deep in our evolution about what's unfair and so on.
我们在动物身上能看到这种现象吗？实际上是可以的。有一些关于卷尾猴的实验，其中一只猴子做了一个动作后，会得到一块香蕉作为奖励。另一只邻笼的猴子做了一个动作，也得到一块香蕉。最初的奖励都是一样的。但后来，另一只猴子做了动作后，得到了一个更大的奖励——一颗葡萄，而葡萄对猴子来说是很大的奖励。于是，第一只猴子就非常生气，开始疯狂摇动笼子，因为它觉得不公平。对公平与否的感知，其实是我们进化过程中的一个深刻特性。
But I want to come back to this issue about rewarding people versus punishing. To my mind, the reason I care so much about this issue of harm happening to people and when we don't care, is because of when we look at what happens around the world, I'm not even talking right now. Let's just take the 20th century. We constantly see people murdering their neighbors for all kinds of reasons, for religious reasons, for atheist, communist, you know, secular reasons, for all kinds of reasons, people are perfectly willing to take their friends' neighbors. Look at the Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda. They had lived together. They were friends. They were his inner marriage.
但我想回到关于奖励和惩罚人这个问题。在我看来，我之所以如此关心这个涉及人类伤害的问题，以及我们为何有时对此漠不关心，是因为我们观察全球发生的事情时常感受到。暂且不谈现在发生的事，就看看20世纪。我们持续看到人们因各种原因而杀害邻居，比如宗教、无神论、共产主义、世俗等各种理由。人们似乎毫不犹豫地对曾经的朋友和邻居下手。看看卢旺达的胡图族和图西族，他们曾一起生活，是朋友，甚至有过通婚关系。
And then the Hutu, you know, raised up their machetes and slaughtered Tutsi at a rate faster than the Germans were able to do with gas chambers and Jews. How these things happen? It's so important for us to understand what are the elements that lead to in group and out group stuff. One of the things I've been very interested in is propaganda. And it turns out across place and time, all governments do propaganda in exactly the same way, which is you simply dehumanize the other group by calling them an animal or any like a virus, a pestilence rats, nowadays, you can even call them robots, whatever, anything that's not human, that turns off these networks that we have in the prefrontal lobe that care about other humans and how to interact with other humans, our colleague, Lassana Harris, has studied this stuff.
然后，胡图族举起砍刀，以比德国人用毒气室对待犹太人更快的速度屠杀图西族。这些事情是如何发生的呢？理解导致群体内外对立的因素对我们来说非常重要。我对宣传非常感兴趣。事实证明，无论是在什么地方或时间，所有政府的宣传手段都如出一辙，那就是通过将其他群体非人化来实现，称他们为动物，或者像病毒、害虫、老鼠，现在甚至可以称他们为机器人，任何不是人的东西，都会关闭我们前额叶中关心其他人以及如何与其他人互动的网络。我们的同事拉萨纳·哈里斯对此进行了研究。
And what happens is when you're dealing with an object now, like, oh, the famous thing that happened in Rwanda is the Tutsi were described as cockroaches. And the radio was blaring that all the time. The Tutsi are cockroaches. So you know, killing cockroaches isn't so hard to do. So you grab your machete and you go do that. And that's the kind of thing I am essentially dedicating my life to this kind of thing is an education about this, such that when the next generation hears propaganda about any group, they say, wait a minute, I've heard that trick before. I know what this is. This is just calling the other group, oh, they're not like us, they're not human.
当你处理一个物品时，比如，发生在卢旺达的著名事件中，图西族被形容为蟑螂。电台一直在广播这一信息：图西族是蟑螂。因此，杀蟑螂似乎并不难，于是你拿起弯刀去做这件事。这正是我决心奉献一生去教育的内容，以便下一代在听到关于任何群体的宣传时，他们能够说，等等，我以前听过这个伎俩。我知道这是什么。这就是在说另一个群体：哦，他们不像我们，他们不是人。
And so on, dialing down these networks that care about other humans, therefore, I don't care about them as much, I don't have empathy for them as much, and I'm only taking up arms against them. Many years ago, I was at a meeting and one of our colleagues, I'll let them remain anonymous for soon to be obvious reasons, made it up and made a really strong case for not referring to the mice and at that time experiments were still done on cats and non-human primates. I mean, those are still used to a lesser extent now, but still to not refer to them as animal models because he felt that it was deep, not dehumanizing them. It was removing the sense that they were real beings.
因此，渐渐地降低对这些网络的关注，这些网络关心其他人，因此，我对他们的关心也减少了，我对他们的同情心也减少了，而我只是在对他们采取对抗行动。多年前，我参加了一个会议，其中一位同事（我会让他们保持匿名，这个原因很快就会显而易见）提出了一个很有力的论点，那就是不应该将老鼠称为"动物模型"，当时实验还在猫和非人灵长类动物上进行。他认为，这样做并不是在去人性化他们，而是在消除它们作为真实生命的感觉。
And as someone who has worked on a number of species, including humans, and frankly, I'll say this proudly, I'm relieved to not do experiments on animals anymore. I really did not like that aspect. I did like working with humans, we say, not on humans, because they can sign up and consent and that sort of thing. I think every profession has this. My friends who are psychologists, you said you're dead with psychiatrists. I always ask people, psychologists and psychiatrists, do you refer to the people that you treat as clients or as patients?
作为一个曾经在多个物种上进行研究的人，包括人类，我可以自豪地说，我真的很庆幸不再做动物实验。我确实不喜欢那个方面。我喜欢与人合作，因为他们可以自愿报名并给予同意。我认为每个行业都有类似的情况。我的一些朋友是心理学家，还有你提到的精神科医生。我总是问他们，心理学家和精神科医生，你们称你们治疗的人为“客户”还是“病人”？
The language doesn't always matter so much, but I think when it comes to animal experimentation, when it comes to people and professional relationships, it actually does matter because I think, as you pointed out, certain circuits in the brain get turned off or on depending on how we refer to people. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know it's starting to sound a little bit like, like this is some like political statement, but it's not, it's just like, I think that words matter, they really do.
语言有时候并不那么重要，但我认为在涉及到动物实验、人与人之间的关系以及专业关系时，语言实际上是重要的。正如你指出的，根据我们如何称呼他人，某些大脑回路会开启或关闭。是的，没错。我知道这听起来有点像政治宣言，但事实上并不是这样的，我只是觉得用词很重要，真的很重要。
Yeah, oh, I totally agree. I think this political statement does matter because when the society reaches a point where some group of people is referred to essentially as non-human, that's when things get really dangerous, really fast. The Tutsi is cockroaches, the Jews as pestilence and Germany and whatever, you know, all these things make a difference. By the, you know, in Germany and the Reichstag in 1934, all the people elected the Reichstag here were either far right, Nazi party or far left communist party.
是的，哦，我完全同意。我认为这份政治声明很重要，因为当社会到了某个阶段，把一部分人群看作非人类时，情况就会变得非常危险，非常迅速。比如，把图西族称作蟑螂，把犹太人看作德国的瘟疫等等，你知道的，这些都产生了影响。在1934年的德国，国会选举中当选的都是极右翼的纳粹党或极左翼的共产党成员。
It was like a really polarized time and the part that's so scary about polarization of that extreme is that it just takes a moment for one party to eat the other. It just, it goes really fast. And suddenly, when Hitler took power when the president von Hindenburg died, Hitler declared himself the führer and rounded up all the communists and put them in jail in concentration camps, right away. And so that's why polarization, if there are things we can do as a society to work on that, to try to get better models of the other person to have meaningful debates and listen to the other side.
那是一个极度对立的时期，极端的对立最可怕之处就在于，一方吞没另一方只需一瞬间。事态发展得非常快。当希特勒在总统兴登堡去世后上台，他立即宣布自己是元首，并立刻逮捕了所有的共产党人，把他们关进监狱和集中营。这正是为什么我们应该努力减少社会极化的原因。我们需要尝试去理解对方，进行有意义的辩论，倾听另一方的声音。
It doesn't mean coming to agree with them or whatever, but it means saying, okay, I'm gonna assume the other person is speaking genuinely, what is their reason for holding this political position? Also, by the way, we're doing a better notion of our own internal models, which is that we are extraordinarily limited. This is actually what my next next book is about. It's called Empire of the Invisible. And it's about why we all believe our own internal models.
这并不意味着要同意他们或妥协，而是指要假设对方是出于真实的想法在发言，我们需要理解他们为什么会持有这种政治立场。同时，我们也在改进对自己内心想法的理解，实际上，我们的理解能力非常有限。这正是我下一本书《隐形帝国》要探讨的主题。这本书讨论的是为什么我们都会相信自己的内心模型。
We've all taken very thin trajectories through space and time. And we've collected up our little scraps of data and we think, oh, I know the truth. I know how to think about the world and these political issues. And if I could just shout in all capital letters on X, loudly enough, everyone would come to agree with me. Especially everyone thinks to steep down their respective of what their political position is. And that's weird that we can't see the fence lines of our own internal models.
我们每个人都在空间和时间中经历过非常细微的轨迹。我们收集了一些零碎的信息，然后认为自己了解了真相，知道该如何看待世界和这些政治问题。我们总觉得，只要在社交媒体上用大写字母大声喊出来，大家就会赞同我们的观点。每个人都认为自己的政治立场是对的。不管是什么政治立场，大家都会有这样的想法。这种状况很奇怪，因为我们看不到自己内心思想模型的界限。
So I think it's really important that this gets built all the way down into our education system at the high school level, maybe even junior high, or we understand the limitations of our own model. We understand how to try to understand other people's models. We understand when it's appropriate to blind our biases in the way that, for example, Symphony Orchestra has been used for decades now where they do a blind audition of musician behind a curtain. So you can't have the opportunity for discrimination based on gender or race or anything else.
我认为非常重要的是，这种理念要深入到我们的教育系统中，从高中开始，甚至可能要从初中就开始，让学生明白我们自身思维模式的局限性，并学会如何理解他人的思维模式。同时，我们要懂得在何时需要克服自身的偏见。比如，交响乐团几十年来一直采用盲试的方法，在帘幕后对音乐家进行试奏，这样就不会因为性别、种族或其他因素产生歧视。
You're just, oh, that was a great oboe player. And so things like that. And I also think that there's another technique that might be super useful here, which is, and this has been exploring this a lot lately. What I'm calling the complexification of relationships, meaning, if you have something in common with someone, and then you find out later that that person has a very different opinion than you do on some hot button political issue, you're more willing to listen to them, because you're already pals on, you know, you're surfing together, you know, whatever, you like the same sports team or whatever, you're more willing to listen.
你会想，“哦，那位双簧管演奏家真是太棒了。” 类似的事情也包括在内。我还认为这里可能有一种非常有用的技巧，我最近对此进行了很多探索。我称之为关系的复杂化。意思是，如果你和某人有共同点，然后你发现那个人在某个热门政治议题上与你的看法大不相同，你会更愿意去倾听他们的意见。因为你们已经是朋友，比如一起冲浪，或者喜欢同一个运动队等，你因此更愿意去倾听。
My example for this is the Iroquo Native Americans who were up in sort of Northern Wisconsin area, five tribes, they all killed each other for years and years. They had a new leader come in, this guy, Denna Gawada, who came to me and I was the great peacemaker. What he did is he said, look, you've got these five tribes, I'm gonna assign each person membership in a clan. So let's say we're in the same tribe, but you're a member of the beaver clan, I'm a member of the Eagle clan and so on. And these clan memberships are cross cutting, such that. Now you say, hey, let's go and be that tribe over the hill. And I say, oh, you know, I don't know. That guy's a member of the Eagle clan and so on. You know, I've got these cross cutting relationships now and unless, like them, let's willing to do that.
这个例子的背景是易洛魁印第安人，他们曾生活在现在的北威斯康星地区，由五个部落组成。这些部落之间长期互相残杀。后来一个新领袖德纳·加瓦达出现，他被誉为伟大的和平缔造者。他的做法是将每个人都分配到一个氏族中。例如，虽然我们可能在同一个部落中，但你属于海狸氏族，而我属于鹰氏族，等等。这种氏族的划分是交叉进行的，这样当有人提议去攻击山那边的部落时，可能会有人说，那个部落里的人和我是同一氏族的。我现在有了这些交叉的关系，就不太愿意像以前那样轻易动武了。
And this ties back to the experiments we did that I mentioned with the hand stabbing. What we now do is we say, the year is 2029 and these three religions have teamed up against these three religions. And now you see the different hands get stabbed, but the ones who I just told you in one sentence are your allies now, you care more about them. Just because I arbitrarily told you that they're your allies. And so when things get complexified like this, we suddenly care more about certain groups and so on.
这与我之前提到的“手被刺”实验有关。现在，我们假设时间是2029年，这三个宗教联手对抗另三个宗教。你会看到不同的手被刺。但一旦我用一句话告诉你哪些是你的盟友，你就会对他们更加在意。仅仅因为我随意告诉你他们是你的盟友。所以，当事情变得复杂时，我们会突然对特定的群体更加在意。
Anyway, I think this is a really important thing to do. So I've patented a new social media algorithm which essentially works simply by surfacing what people have in common. So if you and I are both on this algorithm, it's, oh, we've got this again, that in common. And all those things get surfaced and we come to know each other and like each other. And only later, temporarily down the line, do we hear, oh, wow, I didn't realize you felt so differently about gun control or abortion or whatever, we learned that later. And then we're more willing to lean in and talk. Fascinating.
无论如何，我觉得这是件很重要的事情。所以，我申请了一个新的社交媒体算法的专利，这个算法的工作原理非常简单，就是突出人们之间的共同点。如果你我都使用这个算法，它会显示我们有哪些共同之处。通过这些共同点，我们能够相互了解并产生好感。直到后来，我们才会发现，哦，原来你对枪支管控或堕胎等问题的看法和我不同，而这时我们更愿意倾听对方并进行交流。这很有趣。
I thought for a while that the solution to polarization was going to be, it sounds like a laboratory experiment, but the interbreeding across, you know, first genetic but also angiographic but also, you know, racial and cultural and ethnic boundaries, right? And when you have people mixing and having children that are mixed, you can no longer assign identity in a way that allows people to continue to hurt and harm one another. Because I do think that the one thing that runs very deep in our species is this evolutionary drive and there are other sources of this, of course, but to make more of ourselves and to protect our young.
我曾一度认为，解决社会分化的问题在于跨越各种界限的融合，虽然听起来像个实验室项目。首先是基因方面的融合，但也包括血管造影、种族、文化和民族的界限。当人们相互融合，生下混血的孩子时，就不能再简单地根据身份来划分他们，这样也就不容易去伤害对方了。因为我确实认为，人类本能中一个很深的驱动力是繁衍后代和保护子女。当然，还有其他方式可以实现这一点。
And if those young are several different races, or religions, et cetera, then you really don't have any anywhere to go, you know, in terms of violence. And of course, I started thinking about this in the way that when I grew up, it wasn't that long and go, I was 475, but it was 50 years ago that you saw less marriage across races, you just did, right? It was happened, but far less frequently than it does now across religions, even across cultures. And now things are quite different, but the polarization continues.
如果这些年轻人来自不同种族、宗教等背景，那么在暴力问题上，你真的没有任何出路。想想我成长的时代，那并不久远，我现在475岁。50年前，跨种族婚姻并不多见，它是有发生，但频率远没有现在高。跨宗教甚至跨文化的情况也是如此。而现在情况已经大不相同了，但社会的分化仍在继续。
Yeah, I wish I shared that optimism on that front, but the fact is in Rwanda, Houtou and Tutsi had been intermarrying for a long time in Germany, Jews and Christians had been intermarrying there for a long time. But when stuff hits the fan, none of that matters. And people will still make dividing lines and say, Hey, if you've got some of this in you, you're on the other side. I wish I had a more optimistic note there.
是的，我希望我能在这个问题上抱有同样的乐观态度，但事实是，在卢旺达，胡图族和图西族已经通婚很久了；在德国，犹太人和基督徒也通婚很久了。但当冲突爆发时，这些都不重要了。人们依然划分界限，说："如果你有某种血统，那你就属于另一边。" 我希望我能有更乐观的看法。
Well, it sounds like the projects you're involved in to try and reduce polarization are, well, I'll say, certainly they're very important and they sound very promising. Look, I feel like we could go another six hours, we have to have you back. Of course, you have your own podcast, amazing podcast. So tell us about just, for folks, we'll put links in the show note captions, but you're writing what, 10 books now, you got a podcast, you're involved in movie, movie scripts, but give us the highlights.
听起来你参与的那些尝试减少极化的项目确实很重要而且前景看好。我觉得我们能继续聊上六个小时，但我们得再请你回来。当然，你有自己的播客，一个很棒的播客。所以，告诉我们一点吧，我们会在节目说明里放上链接。你现在写了多少本书，十本吗？你有一个播客，还参与电影和电影剧本制作，给我们简单介绍一下吧。
What are you up to these days when you're not teaching three different classes at Stanford? So I'm running the podcast, Intercosmos, which is awesome podcast, I listen to it. Thank you, thanks. And that's a really wonderful way for me to put out lots of ideas. Often I do, mostly it's monologue, but I do have guests as well. And I get to just tackle big philosophical questions about time, about polarization, about whatever. I just signed my next two books, one is the Ulysses contract and one I mentioned is called Empire the Invisible.
你最近在斯坦福教授三门不同的课程之外都在忙些什么呢？我正在制作一个名叫《Intercosmos》的播客，这是一个很棒的播客，我也听过。谢谢，非常感谢。这是我分享许多想法的一种很好的方式。通常是我独白，但也会邀请嘉宾。我可以讨论一些大的哲学问题，比如时间、分歧等。我刚签约了我的下一本和下下本书，分别叫《尤利西斯合约》和《看不见的帝国》。
And then yeah, I'm also doing a lot in the realm of movie production stuff. We're making a documentary film right now with the comedian Craig Ferguson where we're asking the question, can AI be funny? So we've built a robot that Craig is gonna go on the road with and do this comedy with in the middle of the country. And the reason we're starting there is because that allows us to ask all these deeper questions about AI, but in a way that draws people into the movie because you can't just make like a doomy gloomy movie about AI and expect anybody to watch it. But this is sort of a really fun, funny movie that allows us to really ask what's it gonna mean for our lives. Awesome.
当然，我现在也在电影制作方面做了很多工作。我们目前正在与喜剧演员克雷格·弗格森一起制作一部纪录片，提出“人工智能能否具有幽默感”这个问题。为此，我们制造了一个机器人，克雷格将带着它在美国中部进行巡演，并在现场进行喜剧表演。我们选择从那里开始，是因为这让我们可以以一种吸引观众的方式，探讨关于人工智能的更深层次问题。我们不能只制作一部关于人工智能的阴郁电影，还指望有人观看，而这部电影则既有趣又幽默，让我们可以真正思考人工智能将如何影响我们的生活。太棒了。
And we're not doing that. You're fixing Dornob's stuff in your home and raising a family. David, thanks so much for coming here today. Great to see you. As everyone now sees and many already knew coming into this, you're a world-class educator and storyteller and most importantly a scientist who ran experiments. I think it really helps to have, you know, no dis on science communicators that haven't run labs and things like that. But I think when one has done experiments, you know, a real deep sense for how data comes together and what it doesn't doesn't mean.
我们并没有做那件事。你在家中修理Dornob的东西，还要抚养家庭。大卫，非常感谢你今天能来到这里。很高兴见到你。正如现在所有人看到的，许多人在开始时就已经知道，你是一位世界级的教育家和讲故事的人，最重要的是你是一位进行过实验的科学家。我认为，这确实有所帮助。并不是要贬低那些没有亲自运行实验室的科学传播者，但我觉得当一个人进行过实验时，就会对数据的形成和含义有一种真正深刻的理解。
And you're a virtuoso. So thanks for coming here today and sharing just so many pearls of wisdom and some practical takeaways that I know myself and other people are really going to work with. Great. Thanks, Andrew. It's a blast being here. Awesome. Come back. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. David Eagleman. To learn more about his work and to find links to his various books, please see the links in the show note captions.
你是一位大师。感谢你今天来到这里，分享了这么多智慧的结晶和实用的建议，我和其他人一定会好好运用这些内容。太好了。谢谢你，Andrew。能够来到这里真是太棒了。太好了，希望你能再次参加。感谢您加入我今天与David Eagleman博士的讨论。如果想了解更多关于他的工作以及他的各类书籍链接，请查看节目说明中的链接。
If you're learning from Endor and join this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.
如果你正在通过Endor学习，并加入了我们的播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是支持我们的一种很棒的零成本方式。另外，请在Spotify和Apple上点击关注按钮，以关注我们的播客。在这两个平台上，你最多可以给我们留下五星评价。现在，你还可以在Spotify和Apple上给我们留言。请同时关注在节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商。这是支持我们播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Hubertman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled, Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
如果您对我或关于播客、嘉宾或希望我在Hubertman Lab播客中考虑的话题有任何问题或意见，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有评论。对于还不知道的朋友，我有一本新书即将发布。这是我的第一本书，名为《Protocols, an operating manual for the human body》（中文题目未提供）。这本书是我耗时五年以上创作的，基于我超过三十年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.
这本书涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼再到与专注和动力相关的压力控制等各方面协议。当然，我也为书中所含的协议提供了科学依据。现在，这本书可以在protocolsbook.com上预售。在那里，你可以找到各种销售商的链接，选择你最喜欢的一家。再次提醒，这本书名为《协议：人体操作手册》。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Hubertman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Hubertman Lab podcast. Again, it's Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名是Hubertman Lab。这包括Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook和LinkedIn。在这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些内容与Hubertman Lab播客的内容重叠，但大部分信息与播客中的内容是不同的。再强调一遍，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是Hubertman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero-cost.
如果你还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，那么你可以了解一下。这是一份免费的月度通讯，里面包括播客总结以及我们所称的“方案”的 PDF 文档（长度为一到三页），涵盖如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺水平、有意的冷敷等内容。我们还有一个基础健身方案，介绍心血管训练和阻力训练。所有这些内容都是完全免费的。
You simply go to HubertmanLab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. David Eagleman. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
您只需访问 HubertmanLab.com，点击右上角的菜单选项，向下滚动找到“新闻通讯”栏目，然后输入您的电子邮件。我需要特别强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。再次感谢您参与今天与大卫·伊格尔曼博士的讨论。最后，但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。